80
   

When will Hillary Clinton give up her candidacy ?

 
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Tue 13 Oct, 2015 09:07 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Bill Clinton beat Bush.

And, yeah, back then the American conservatives were puffing out their chests and announcing to everyone that American conservatism had absolute veto power over who gets to the Oval Office...that no one would ever again be elected to that job without their approval.

They've never gotten over the fact that Bill Clinton blew the doors off that car! Twice!

I think they got over it easily enough.

The sort of triumphalism that you refer to where the party base thinks they will rule forever happens every time a party currently holds the White House.

I don't know how many times I've told someone from one party or the other that "no, the opposing party is not on their way to extinction, and will be back in power soon enough".

The silly triumphalism is quickly forgotten once the other side wins, and is resumed just as quickly once a party returns to power.
Frank Apisa
 
  5  
Tue 13 Oct, 2015 09:21 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
Bill Clinton beat Bush.

And, yeah, back then the American conservatives were puffing out their chests and announcing to everyone that American conservatism had absolute veto power over who gets to the Oval Office...that no one would ever again be elected to that job without their approval.

They've never gotten over the fact that Bill Clinton blew the doors off that car! Twice!

I think they got over it easily enough.

The sort of triumphalism that you refer to where the party base thinks they will rule forever happens every time a party currently holds the White House.

I don't know how many times I've told someone from one party or the other that "no, the opposing party is not on their way to extinction, and will be back in power soon enough".

The silly triumphalism is quickly forgotten once the other side wins, and is resumed just as quickly once a party returns to power.


Back when Bill Clinton WON that election...

...conservative America was absolutely positive it had veto power over the presidency.

They NEVER got over it.

The election of Barack Obama awakened all that again.



coldjoint
 
  -2  
Tue 13 Oct, 2015 09:26 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
The election of Barack Obama awakened all that again.


Obama is like awakening to a nightmare. Exactly what has he done that has improved this country?
Frank Apisa
 
  5  
Tue 13 Oct, 2015 09:35 am
@coldjoint,
coldjoint wrote:

Quote:
The election of Barack Obama awakened all that again.


Obama is like awakening to a nightmare. Exactly what has he done that has improved this country?


He hasn't done what was done during the Bush II administration...

...and that is a huge improvement.
coldjoint
 
  -2  
Tue 13 Oct, 2015 09:39 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
He hasn't done what was done during the Bush II administration...


Your right, Bush had some positive things happen.
Frank Apisa
 
  5  
Tue 13 Oct, 2015 09:43 am
@coldjoint,
coldjoint wrote:

Quote:
He hasn't done what was done during the Bush II administration...


Your right, Bush had some positive things happen.


Nice try. But lame!
Below viewing threshold (view)
coldjoint
 
  -3  
Tue 13 Oct, 2015 09:56 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Nice try. But lame!

Quote:
1. President Bush's tax cutting policies increased government revenues, established the conditions that led to the creation of eight million jobs across the Nation, and reduced the unemployment rate to 4.4%.
2. President Bush's leadership in the War on Terror cannot be forgotten: the Taliban are no longer in control of Afghanistan, Saddam Hussein is dead, and the Iraqi people are free at last to govern themselves.
3. President Bush's Christianity led to the prohibition of all partial birth abortions, the defense of marriage, and the expenditure of almost $15 billion to fight the dreaded AIDS virus in poor African nations.
4. President Bush's Conservatism led to the Judicial Nominations of Justice Samuel Alito, and Chief Justice John Roberts, both of whom are stalwarts of Constructionist realities on the bench.


1.Look at all those jobs, and real jobs not part-time and low paying like the Obama recovery created.
2. Obama has trashed every one of those victories. Iraqis are not free to govern themselves, and experience terror attacks daily. And the Taliban is surging again in Afghanistan. US lives don't matter to Obama, and never will.
3. He wasn't a baby killer. I think that is a positive. What has Obama done for Africa except backing Muslim leaders? Bush went after AIDs, did Obama keep that going? NO.
4.Alito has stood firm, Roberts has bowed to pressure or blackmail.


http://www.punditpress.com/2010/11/positives-of-george-w-bush.html
0 Replies
 
coldjoint
 
  -4  
Wed 14 Oct, 2015 08:37 pm

Quote:
Over Half of America Wants Hillary Under Criminal Investigation


Read more at http://dailysurge.com/2015/08/over-half-of-america-wants-hillary-under-criminal-investigation/

Quote:
A new Monmouth University poll found that 52 percent of those asked said they want to see a criminal investigation launched into Hillary Clinton’s secret Home Brew server.

That’s 52 percent, folks!

0 Replies
 
snood
 
  6  
Wed 14 Oct, 2015 10:14 pm
Second GOP Congressman Admits Benghazi Committee Is All About Hillary Clinton
"Sometimes the biggest sin you can commit in D.C. is to tell the truth."

A second congressman admitted on Wednesday that the Republican House committee created to investigate the 2012 terrorist attack in Benghazi, Libya, is solely "designed to go after" Hillary Clinton.

“This may not be politically correct, but I think that there was a big part of this investigation that was designed to go after people and an individual, Hillary Clinton,” Rep. Richard Hanna (R-N.Y.) said on a morning radio show in upstate New York.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/hillary-clinton-benghazi-investigation_561ef9eae4b0c5a1ce62037e?b6totj4i

Over 50 attempts in Congress to overturn Obamacare, along with a government shutdown. Over a year and close to 5 million dollars on a Hillary witchhunt.

The last visible GOP person that didn't seem to me like a childish, nihilistic POS was John Huntsman. I hope they get Trump to helm their garbage scow of a party.
coldjoint
 
  -3  
Wed 14 Oct, 2015 10:19 pm
@snood,
The fact that the administration and Killary blamed it on a video is reason enough. You want four more reasons? And the fact that a terror attack would blown Obamas re-election(so they ALL lied) is the real political crime here.
snood
 
  6  
Wed 14 Oct, 2015 10:24 pm
@coldjoint,
Well, I don't expect your side to let it go. Because realistically - what the hell else are you all going to do?
bobsal u1553115
 
  3  
Thu 15 Oct, 2015 05:32 am
WaPo reaches late Amb. Chris Stevens' mom abt shameless ad showing her son's grave: “If I could sue


Brian Fallon ‏@brianefallon 8h8 hours ago

WaPo reaches late Amb. Chris Stevens' mom abt shameless ad showing her son's grave: “If I could sue him I would" https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/10/14/the-anti-hillary-clinton-ad-thats-angering-some-family-members-of-benghazi-victims/
View summary
73 retweets 28 favorites

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/10/14/the-anti-hillary-clinton-ad-thats-angering-some-family-members-of-benghazi-victims/

The anti-Hillary Clinton ad that’s angering some family members of Benghazi victims

By Ian Shapira October 14 at 4:52 PM

During Tuesday night’s Democratic presidential debate on CNN, a provocative anti-Hillary Clinton commercial aired, set to haunting music and featuring the photo of slain CIA contractor, Glen Doherty, who was killed during the 2012 attacks at U.S. facilities in Benghazi, Libya. With the contractor’s photo dominating the screen, a narrator begins speaking, as if Doherty himself were talking from the grave.

“Dear Hillary Clinton, I’d like to ask you why you ignored calls for help in Benghazi and then four Americans were murdered,” the narrator says, pretending to be Doherty.

The commercial, paid for by the Alexandria, Va.-based StopHillaryPac, doesn’t stop there. The ad goes on to portray the three other Americans killed in the Benghazi attacks, including U.S. Ambassador Christopher Stevens, as if they were all speaking from their graves, denouncing Clinton, whose response to the attacks while she was Secretary of State has come under ceaseless scrutiny from Republicans. The instant reaction to the commercial on Twitter was scathing. For starters, the commercial misspelled Libya.



But people also attacked it for exploiting the images of four people killed in the attack for a very partisan issue on national television. The Post reached out to family members of all four victims profiled in the commercial. None of them had seen the commercial, but once they were given a link to the ad or heard its description, most were angry....................
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Thu 15 Oct, 2015 05:39 am
@coldjoint,
Quote:
Bush had some positive things happen.


Name one. Just one.
snood
 
  4  
Thu 15 Oct, 2015 05:59 am
@bobsal u1553115,
bobsal u1553115 wrote:

Quote:
Bush had some positive things happen.


Name one. Just one.


Eugene Robinson: George W. Bush’s greatest legacy — his battle against AIDS

This is a moment for all Americans to be proud of the best thing George W. Bush did as president: launching an initiative to combat AIDS in Africa that has saved millions of lives.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/eugene-robinson-george-w-bushs-greatest-legacy--his-battle-against-aids/2012/07/26/gJQAumGKCX_story.html

Everyone knows I ain't no Bush fan by any stretch. But you gotta give credit where it's doe.
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Thu 15 Oct, 2015 07:45 am
An alternate view

August 14, 2013
The Real Story About Bush, HIV/AIDS and Africa


http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/08/14/the-real-story-about-bush-hivaids-and-africa/

by Rob Prince

Email

The thin thread – the pretext – for offering George W. Bush what was originally entitled an “Improving The Human Condition Award”, now referred to as `a Global Service’ award (by the University of Denver) – is his supposed work to fight AIDs in Africa.

By emphasizing Bush’s Africa anti-AIDS campaign, most recent explanation for this award, the Korbel School is not doing anything original. A look at the mainstream American media over the past months – starting in the early Spring – suggests nothing short of a coordinated media campaign to reshape Bush’s image. But in many ways, this “re-branding George W. Bush campaign” is worse than trying to put lipstick on a pig—it’s more like putting a Freddy Krueger mask on a pig. It makes the pig look worse.

It has included virtually the entire news media, from newsprint to television and tended to sing the same song: that Bush made a major contribution to fighting AIDS in Africa through PERFAR, an initiative begun in early 2003 – in fact, just before the Bush Administration launched its war against Iraq. Add glowing comments from the likes of Bono, Elton John and Matt Damon (his `I would kiss George W. Bush on the mouth for his AIDS work‘ tops the list) to spit shine the image. Bush’s evangelical supporters – a key element to his constituency – chipped in as well. What stands out about this campaign – check any source – is the nearly complete absence of any remarks critical of the PERFAR program.

This Bush image remake culminated in the opening of the Bush Presidential Library in Texas where the former President, Christian fundamentist and cocaine sniffer got bipartisan kudos from Republicans and Democrats alike. It is not only the University of Denver’s administration that is touting Bush’s supposed contribution to countering AIDS in Africa. As one might suspect given Bush’s record on “improving the human condition”, there is much less here than meets the eye.

In many ways, Bush’s AIDS work is more an example of how not to conduct a foreign aid program, than how to do it. Take away the AIDS initiative and all that is left is the wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, the use of torture, intensification of secret special forces operations, helping to promote the collapse of the US and global economies.

The U.S. governmental program to fight HIV/AIDS is formally known as the President’s Emergency Plan For AIDS Relief (PEPFAR). From the outset, PEPFAR has been run out of the Department of State’s Office of U.S. Global AIDS Coordinator (OGAC). The project works through many other U.S. government agencies (US AID, etc). PEPFAR, according to its own reports, has given anti-retroviral drugs –according to 2013 GAO report to 5.1 million people, more than half of these in low or middle income countries, many of them in Africa. In recent years PEPFAR has shifted emphasis to training in-country specialists to take over the programs. The program has somewhat expanded under Obama.

But what sounds good in the press is not necessarily so in fact.

At best, the results have been mixed. A great deal of money has been spent on the program since its inception with questionable, limited – often exaggerated results and few serious follow up studies. From the outset the program has been plagued with criticisms – some of them serious; do the critiques of the program outweigh the benefits? At the same time there is another issue: how much really has George W. Bush contributed to the shaping and the implementation of the program, if at all?

If PEPFAR has some serious shortcomings, still, its accomplishments cannot be entirely written off. It is almost as if some good has come from the program in spite of itself. As a recent GAO report on PEPFAR notes: “our recent reports have concluded that PEPFAR has helped partner countries expand treatment programs and increase program efficiency and effectiveness” The same report hints at some of PEPFAR’s problems: “However we found that the OGAC has not yet established a common set of indicators to monitor the results of PEPFAR’s efforts to improve the quality of treatment programs.” (p.14) “Also problems of in-country inventory controls and record keeping’ – ie – waste, theft, corruption.

Some of the success is due to the program’s change in policy, its ability to purchase generic ARV drugs. When Bush was in office, PEPFAR was little more than yet another boom for U.S. pharmaceuticals as the program required that the drugs be purchased from the pharmaceuticals holding patents, It was the shift to generics, encouraged according to some sources by Bill Clinton, has led to a significant extension of the program and $1 billion savings over a five year period. As a result, the cost per patient has gone dropped some 400% from 2005-2011 and many more people have been treated.

Among the more serious criticisms of PEPFAR is the way the program is implemented in Uganda. At the heart of the program is what is referred to as the ABC approach, an acronym for `abstention, be faithful, use a condom’ – a touching, Christian fundamentalist inspired, but almost entirely irrelevant way of treating AIDS. The program is not run out of the United Nations nor organizations like the World Health Organization, but is run bilaterally between the United States and the target nations involved.

PEPFAR there is a typical `top down’ bureaucratic affair with very little interaction with “folks on the ground”, similar in many ways to many World Bank/IMF structural adjustment programs – a lot of sound and fury signifying much less than asserted. As the ABC approach glaringly suggests, PEPFAR is infused with Christian fundamentalist values. In line with their skewed thinking, the program promotes `abstention’, prostitutes and homosexuals are excluded from treatment. Emphasizing abstention tends to focus on individual behavior modification for prevention, – as opposed to structural change, or some kind of hybrid approach or an approach which focuses on prevention.

By excluding those more likely to be affected by HIV/AIDS, PEPFAR is shooting itself in the foot. The results have been – almost predictably – uneven. If HIV/AIDS levels in Uganda did dip in the early years of the program, their levels are once again on the rise. While some groups see (significantly) falling rates of HIV/AIDS prevalence, other groups see rates rising or unchanged (e.g. married women, LGBT community). In a similar vein, there is no real evidence that the credit for declining HIV prevalence where it exists, is as a result of the Bush program.

PEPFAR has also resulted in a number of unintended consequences: the marginalization of groups at high risk for HIV/AIDS (LGBT, prostitutes, IV drug users, etc.); the promulgation of misunderstandings about HIV transmission, prevention and safe sex (condoms); the promulgation of misunderstandings about the causes of HIV/AIDS epidemic (structures and flows matter too! e.g. gender hierarchies, class hierarchies, economic change, migratory flows).

Even if we examine only the most narrow issue at play in the context of the Korbel Award—the Bush record on HIV/AIDS prevention and treatment—Bush’s record of “global service” falls short. In Uganda, the ABC prevention program spread US power and influence, reinforced unjust social divisions, propagated misinformation, all the while actually causing HIV/AIDS infection rates to rise in some cases. Even where HIV/AIDS rates have fallen (for some populations, very considerably), the role of the Bush program in this fall is heavily disputed.

2.

From the Peace Corps in the 1960s to PEPFAR Today – A Never-ending Effort to Reshape The U.S. Foreign Policy Image…

U.S. foreign policy has often had more than one face. For example, in the early 1960s, Presidents Kennedy and Johnson launched the steamroller wars in Indochina, conducted aggressive interventions and C.I.A.-like coups in dozens of Third World countries (Congo, Dominican Republic, Iraq, Cuba, much of Latin America – just to name a few). At the same time that the Kennedy Administration was putting in motion what would become a half a century of counter-insurgency into Third World affairs, it also created the Peace Corps!

It is a mistake to underestimate the public relations importance of the Peace Corps (or now PEPFAR), which soften an otherwise militaristic and essentially greedy reality of U.S. foreign policy. In both the case of the Peace Corps and PEPFAR, the public relations aspect of the campaign has been as important – if not more important – as the actual results. It is not that Peace Corps `did nothing’ to help the countries where its volunteers were sent, but its overall record in terms of aiding development is spotty at best. Furthermore, one notes how few serious, rigorous studies have been done to evaluate Peace Corps’ contribution, effectiveness or lack thereof.

If the Kennedy and Johnson Administrations were dropping napalm and phosphorous bombs all over Vietnam, putting people in tiger cages and executing tens of thousands there based up a `profiling’ program known as the Phoenix Program, in Tunisia (and elsewhere) Peace Corps architects were designing civic centers and reconstructing mosques, training daycare center directors and teaching English in high schools and universities at the same time. Building bridges in one part of the world paralleled blowing them up elsewhere.

The Bush Administration’s policy of `combatting HIV/AIDS’ in the periphery of the global economy while destroying Iraq and Afghanistan is the more recent example of the same policy a half century on. Launching PEPFAR at the same time as he was launching Cruise missiles at Iraqi power stations, bridges and hospitals provided Bush with a veil of respectability that would later come in handy. PEPFAR began in early 2003, right around the time that the Bush Administration launched its war in Iraq which led to the overthrow of Saddam Hussein and the implosion of that country. What was probably the most economically and socially advanced country in the Arab world was reduced to rubble within a decade.

If U.S. forces were bombing bridges in Baghdad and Basra, the U.S. State Department was giving out anti-HIV vaccinations in Uganda and preaching sexual abstinence to locals there. If one counts the civilian casualties from the Iraq war alone, which government U.S. statisticians are careful not to do, the deaths inflicted by the conflict by some counts are more than one million. Another four million out of a population of 22 million were made refugees either within the country or abroad. The casualties inflicted on Afghanistan are similarly tragic. No amount of embellishing – if not inventing – George Bush’s supposed contribution to combating HIV/AIDS can undo that damage. The smudge cannot be erased.

Rob Prince is a lecturer Lecturer in International Studies at the University of Denver.
0 Replies
 
coldjoint
 
  -3  
Thu 15 Oct, 2015 10:31 am
@snood,
Quote:
Well, I don't expect your side to let it go


The mothers of the dead have not let it go, and I know that at least one of them won't and should not. I guess Obama is afraid the truth will come out and it will be known that Valerie Jarrettt is the real power in Washington.

As far as Killary she lied to everyones face whose family was involved. Remember the video creator went to jail. That is, in reality, enforcing Sharia.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  3  
Fri 16 Oct, 2015 03:05 am
The view from the BBC on Hilary's debate and the likelihood of Biden throwing his hat into the ring.

Quote:
Joe Biden may have witnessed the curtain come down on his presidential ambitions from the comfort of his Washington mansion on Tuesday night.

Although CNN had an extra lectern set aside for the vice-president at the debate venue in Las Vegas, it went unused - and the name of the man-who-might-possibly-want-to-run-for-president was never brought up during the course of the evening's proceedings.

The only reminder of the spectre of a Biden candidacy came during a commercial break prior to the start of the debate, when the Draft Biden organisation - that cast of former staffers and campaign operatives without a current home - ran an advert featuring audio from Mr Biden's 2012 Democratic convention speech accompanied by soulful guitar music and black-and-white photos of Mr Biden, Mr Biden with Barack Obama and the stock images of the "everyday Americans" of political lore.

The advert was largely ignored in the morning-after debate round-ups from pundits and analysts, however, as a consensus quickly formed that the vice-president had missed an opportunity to elbow his way into the race.
Hillary Clinton acquitted herself well on the stage and didn't display the kind of glaring weaknesses that could prompt Mr Biden to launch what would be a campaign unprecedented in modern times for its deadline-toeing tardiness.

"Clinton closed what could have been multiple paths for Biden," writes Politico's Edward-Isaac Dovere. "She wove close to the president repeatedly through the debate, minimizing her policy disagreements and all but claiming his endorsement the first time she brought up his name.

Former Clinton campaign manager David Axelrod says the rationale for a Biden candidacy is rapidly diminishing.

"After Tuesday, the calls on him to save the party from a weak front-runner will be more muted," he writes for CNN. "He is running third in the polls, and nothing that happened in Tuesday's debate likely closed that gap."

Even conservatives, many of whom likely cherished the prospect of a protracted Clinton-Biden face-off, were down on the vice-president's prospects.

John Podhoretz writes in the New York Post that Mrs Clinton "may have just put the primary away" thanks to a solid debate performance and the decision by her opponents, including populist challenger Bernie Sanders, to pull their rhetorical punches when addressing the former secretary of state.

"The rest of the Democratic field was so pathetically weak, there's no question that a Biden entry would give her a harder time than she had last night," he writes.

"What he needed was Hillary to stumble, to look shifty, to deepen the worry among Democrats that she will not be able to stand up to Republican attacks on her dishonesty and untrustworthiness," he continues. "That didn't happen, in part because of the astounding decision by Sanders to jump on her bandwagon and say no one cares about her emails."

In the National Review, David French has a message for the vice-president: "If you're going to get in the race, you better do it now, because Hillary's looking inevitable again."

The will-he-won't-he saga for Mr Biden's presidential consideration has gone on for more than two months now, and the self-imposed date for when he would announce his intensions has been repeatedly pushed back, from the end of August, to September, to October.

There's already been a few chirps among left-leaning commentators that Mr Biden should just make up his mind already, rather than leave the Democratic race in an unsettled state.

"The game Joe Biden is playing now, in holding back on making his decision and telling us what he plans to do, just has to end, and fast," Greg Sargent wrote last week in the Washington Post. "At best it's becoming a farcical distraction that is beneath him. At worst it's becoming a serious waste of our time."

Mr Biden's indecision is already drawing not-complimentary comparisons to Mario Cuomo's presidential flirtations in 1991, when cameras were fixed on the airplane the then-New York governor had idling at an Albany airport that would have taken him to a presidential announcement in New Hampshire. Mr Cuomo opted not to run, leaving the Democratic nomination path open to a cast of lesser-known candidates, including Arkansas Governor Bill Clinton.
The latest word from the Biden camp has the vice-president making his announcement within a week or so. There's some speculation that he's waiting to see how Mrs Clinton will perform during her 22 October public testimony before Republican Congressman Trey Gowdy and his House committee investigating the Benghazi consulate attacks.

"At this point, Biden might as well wait until after the Benghazi hearing, because his asset is as the guy warming up in the bullpen," writes NBC's Chuck Todd and Mark Murray. "The final word on a Biden candidacy might rest in Trey Gowdy's hands."'

During Tuesday night's debate, Mrs Clinton dismissed the committee as a partisan side-show aimed at damaging her approval ratings. Chances are she will be equally unbowed during her Capitol Hill appearance.

If Mr Biden pushes his decision back too much later, he will be in danger of missing the deadline to have his name appear on some state primary ballots. The cut-off for Georgia is 29 October, with more state filing dates in early November.

The clock is ticking for the vice-president, but if the alarm didn't go off before Tuesday night's Las Vegas debate it may never sound.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34510679
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Fri 16 Oct, 2015 03:22 am
@izzythepush,
On the other hand we just watched Hillary give about the best performance of her life, and it was still clearly a performance. With the mood of the people in 2015 that is shark bait right there.

Quote:
In a letter sent to former staffers Thursday, one of Vice President Joe Biden's closest confidants explained Biden is approaching a decision about 2016 and detailed what a potential presidential campaign might entail.

Former Delaware Senator Ted Kaufman, one of Biden’s oldest friends and long time advisors, wrote a letter to former Biden staffers Thursday indicating the vice president is "aware of the practical demands of making a final decision soon" and describing how the vice president would run an "optimistic campaign" focusing on reviving the middle class.

“If he runs, he will run because of his burning conviction that we need to fundamentally change the balance in our economy and the political structure to restore the ability of the middle class to get ahead,” Kaufman wrote.

“What kind of campaign? An optimistic campaign. A campaign from the heart. A campaign consistent with his values, our values, and the values of the American people. And I think it's fair to say, knowing him as we all do, that it won't be a scripted affair-- after all, it's Joe,” he wrote.

The letter, which was first obtained by the Los Angeles Times and Associated Press, is the most public signal yet from Biden’s inner sanctum about the status of the vice president’s deliberations. Kaufman is part of the small, tight-knit group advising the vice president about 2016.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/joe-biden-aide-sends-letter-detailing-vice-presidents/story?id=34511170
izzythepush
 
  2  
Fri 16 Oct, 2015 03:34 am
@hawkeye10,
Honestly Hawkeye, I don't think you know the mood of the people outside your tea party buddies. Most A2Kers, with the exception of far right extremists like Gungasnake and Coldjoint think very different to you. Now I know you will simply put it down to what you erroneously describe as A2K's "liberal" demographic, but I find it definitely right of centre, if not staunchly conservative.
 

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