80
   

When will Hillary Clinton give up her candidacy ?

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 11:40 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

It doesn't take a legal scholar to read the applicable statute. Give it a try.


I have. I didn't find anything in there that leads me to believe that your account is in fact the correct reading of the statute, or that a casual reading is enough to determine whether or not someone should be prosecuted for their actions. Prosecutorial discretion is a real thing and it exists for a reason: because a simple reading of the statute is in no way linked to actual convictions in a court of law, and they know it.

Quote:
I don't need or intend to relay personal information on my qualifications to interpret the law. Never have nor ever will. However you are more than welcome to actually read the statute and offer an argument why I am wrong.


You might as well just write that you have no particular personal experience with this, which we all know is the case based simply on what you've written in this thread.

Quote:
The law is not more complex than what it says. The application of it may be when politics are involved, but the statue is clear that intent is not required and Comey never argued that the law required intent he opined that a successful prosecution did. Those are two entirely different matters.


There's no evidence that it was politically motivated at all. On the contrary, the important point is that they didn't feel they could get a conviction. Comey went so far as to say that no reasonable prosecutor would EVER bring this case forward, based on the evidence. That's not a hedging statement nor is it a politically motivated one.

Quote:
You're floundering Cyclo


I'm sure you think so, but at the end of the day, one of us is happy about how reality turned out and the other one is not. Which position would you rather be in? Mine, in which I have to restrain myself from gloating, or yours, in which you have to restrain yourself from grousing?

Cycloptichorn
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 11:40 am
Hey all you Clintonistas are happy that Comey didn't recommend prosecution. Fine. You're OK with a lying, law breaker as your candidate...I can't change that.

Just don't try to sell me or anyone else that he exonerated her. It's a blatantly false statement.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 11:42 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

And you are scrupulously ignoring that a decision not to prosecute is not the same as a statement that the target of the investigation is innocent.


While that's an interesting opinion of yours, the two are effectively the same. Remember that Clinton is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Comey specifically said there wasn't enough evidence to even ATTEMPT to do that in court. Therefore she is, in the eyes of the law, completely innocent of law-breaking in the matter under discussion - and that's a fact.

Cycloptichorn
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 11:43 am
@Cycloptichorn,
All I can say is that your are incapable of reading a statute or or lying about reading it because intent is not required.

I don't need to provided my bonafides to prove that my reading of the statute is correct.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 11:45 am
@Cycloptichorn,
No they are not

He could have easily stated that based on his investigation there was no evidence that that statute was violated. He didn't. Instead he spent 15 minutes or more laying out the case for how it was violated and what a liar she is.

Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 11:47 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
I'm sure you think so, but at the end of the day, one of us is happy about how reality turned out and the other one is not. Which position would you rather be in? Mine, in which I have to restrain myself from gloating, or yours, in which you have to restrain yourself from grousing?


Well, that's a very telling statement.

What difference does it make legally as long as you get to gloat about the outcome.
parados
 
  3  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 11:49 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
"I know from 30 years there's no way anybody at the Department of Justice is bringing a case against John Doe or Hillary Clinton for the second time in 100 years based on those facts," Comey added.

The FBI director also appeared to take a shot at former U.S. Attorney Rudy Giuliani and other ex-prosecutors who have been saying they would've charged Clinton with gross negligence.

"I know a lot of my former friends are out there saying where they would. I wonder where they were the last 40 years, because I'd like to see the cases they brought on gross negligence. Nobody would, nobody did," Comey said.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/under-the-radar/2016/07/heres-the-other-gross-negligence-case-comey-cited-in-clinton-email-testimony-225266
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 11:57 am
@parados,
Well that settles it doesn't it.

Who would expect Comey to defend his position?

Did you hear his statement?
parados
 
  3  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 11:58 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Instead he spent 15 minutes or more laying out the case for how it was violated and what a liar she is.


No. He spent 15 minutes talking about actions of many people. He didn't spend that time telling us how Hillary violated a statute. In fact, he states that while there is evidence of POTENTIAL violations, notice he doesn't say actual violations, his view is no reasonable prosecutor would pursue it. Based on what was sent and received the potential violations most likely would have been from people sending Hillary emails.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 11:59 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Quote:
I'm sure you think so, but at the end of the day, one of us is happy about how reality turned out and the other one is not. Which position would you rather be in? Mine, in which I have to restrain myself from gloating, or yours, in which you have to restrain yourself from grousing?


Well, that's a very telling statement.

What difference does it make legally as long as you get to gloat about the outcome.


Considering that I never believed she did anything wrong at all, I'm quite happy with both the outcome and the fact that the law enforcement agencies involved supported my view that she didn't break the laws in question. How am I supposed to feel about that, other than happy?

And, to flip it around, is there anything Comey could have said while not recommending indictment that would have made you satisfied? Nope, because of a combination of your desperation to DQ her and apparent conclusion that a casual reading of a statute empowers you to make declarative statements regarding the application of said statute. So why should any of us expect you to feel or behave any differently than you currently are? Or be particularly concerned by said behavior?

Cycloptichorn
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 12:01 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Oh please.

Why not just state you're a true blue Clintonista?

It would have made me "happy" if Comey unequivocally stated she was guilty of nothing. He didn't.

parados
 
  3  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 12:02 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
WTF Finn...

Perhaps you can point to where he spent 15 minutes telling us how Hillary Clinton violated the law. He on 3 separate occasions goes out of his way to say there was not enough evidence to charge anyone in this case.

Quote:
Although there is evidence of potential violations of the statutes regarding the handling of classified information, our judgment is that no reasonable prosecutor would bring such a case

Quote:
In looking back at our investigations into mishandling or removal of classified information, we cannot find a case that would support bringing criminal charges on these facts.

Quote:
We do not see those things here.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 12:08 pm
@parados,
WTF Parados

If the statute only requires gross negligence and Comey spent 15 minutes detailing Clinton's gross negligence, he made the case she broke the law.

You and all other Clintonistas can't seem to understand that a a refusal to recommend prosecution based on the opinion that a jury won't care about the wording of the statute and insist upon a showing of intent, is not exoneration.

If you think the statute requires intent, offer proof.

Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 12:08 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Oh please.

Why not just state you're a true blue Clintonista?


I'll repeat: when have I ever made any bones about being a partisan? That being said, Ad Hominem attacks against me do not satisfy the problems with your position.

Quote:
It would have made me "happy" if Comey unequivocally stated she was guilty of nothing. He didn't.


Comey could never say such a thing, because he doesn't at all know that's true. He only can report on whether or not the items they were investigating merited prosecution, and he reported that they didn't. Unequivocally. The only remaining pillar of your argument, given this, is that you believe Comey did so in error or for political reasons. Those are interesting opinions, but they don't change the fact that he did in fact declare her to be innocent of breaking the law in this instance, no matter what his personal opinion of her actions was.

Cycloptichorn
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 12:09 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Blah blah blah
ehBeth
 
  2  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 12:14 pm
I''m not a Matthew Iglesias fan, but Vox likes him so I have to at least take a look.


http://www.vox.com/2016/8/18/12518726/hillary-clinton-good-manager



Quote:
It’s difficult to report on a negative, and the fact that Clinton’s campaign hasn’t been the scene of staff turmoil, semi-public infighting, and damaging leaks is in some ways the definition of a nonstory.

But her 2008 campaign was all of these things, and her success in reinventing herself as the leader of a “no drama” operation in the mold of Barack Obama’s campaign style is a genuinely surprising subplot to a campaign that’s been full of surprises.


<snip snip ... good reading ... go do it>

Quote:
Clinton’s 2016 team broke with the past

The early development of Clinton’s 2016 team clearly reflected a desire to break with the legacy of mismanagement that plagued her 2008 effort. Most of the key people from that campaign didn’t come back for a second tour of duty.

Instead, the campaign’s senior personnel were either (like Podesta and Palmieri) less tied to her personally than to the Democratic Party institutionally or else (like Sullivan) relative newcomers to Clintonworld who’d done well at the State Department. It was a highly professional operation full of well-regarded political operatives, mostly battle-tested by service in an Obama administration that prided itself on an un-Clintonian absence of drama and scandal.

It seemed like the right way to go, but to many outsiders — okay, to me — it seemed almost too good to be true.


<another snip of political nerd interest>

Quote:
Clinton has been tested — but only a little

One difference, of course, is that in politics it’s a lot easier to look good while you’re winning than while you’re losing. This time around, Clinton has been consistently winning.

We can’t really know whether she would have stayed the course had she fallen behind Bernie Sanders in the delegate count or if Donald Trump had opened up a persistent national polling lead.

We can certainly say that Sanders surprising on the upside didn’t lead to a panic. Indeed, in January, Politico carried a report by Glenn Thrush and Annie Karni hinting that a major staff shakeup was in the offing if Clinton lost New Hampshire, but it never happened even though she got creamed. Whatever doubts Clinton may have expressed to friends who talked to Politico, nothing came of it. And there were no more rumors of staff shakeups even as Sanders proved frustratingly difficult to put away.

Perhaps more significantly, her team stayed the course throughout the July period when Trump largely closed the polling gap and had many liberals alarmed. The Clinton team’s theory was that Trump was benefitting from party unity and that a strong show of support for Clinton from Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren at the Democratic convention would accomplish the same for her — and they stuck with that theory. Probably not every single person in Clinton’s orbit agreed with it, but whoever had doubts kept them to themselves, they executed the strategy, and it worked.

To an extent, of course, old worries about Clinton’s management skills are moot at this point. Put next to Donald Trump, basically anyone would look like a well-disciplined politician capable of running a polished, professional campaign organization. But while elections are a zero-sum game, governance is not. People who remember her 2008 campaign with alarm can take at least some solace in the fact that she seems to have improved on her weaknesses.


Looks like Mrs. Clinton learned , applied and improved.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 12:15 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
If the statute only requires gross negligence and Comey spent 15 minutes detailing Clinton's gross negligence, he made the case she broke the law.


Comey did not find that Clinton was 'grossly negligent.' In fact, he very carefully avoided ever saying that in his statement on the matter. He did call her 'careless,' but Gross Negligence is a very specific legal term:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_negligence.

Let's look once again at what Comey actually said:

Quote:
Our investigation looked at whether there is evidence classified information was improperly stored or transmitted on that personal system, in violation of a federal statute making it a felony to mishandle classified information either intentionally or in a grossly negligent way, or a second statute making it a misdemeanor to knowingly remove classified information from appropriate systems or storage facilities.

Consistent with our counterintelligence responsibilities, we have also investigated to determine whether there is evidence of computer intrusion in connection with the personal e-mail server by any foreign power, or other hostile actors.


The FBI failed to find enough evidence to build a case on any of those points. They didn't find that she intentionally mishandled classified info; they didn't find that she was grossly negligent; they didn't find that a hostile actor had accessed the info. Therefore, the statute you keep referring to doesn't provide any basis for charging her for her actions.

Quote:
You and all other Clintonistas can't seem to understand that a a refusal to recommend prosecution based on the opinion that a jury won't care about the wording of the statute and insist upon a showing of intent, is not exoneration.


This is an interesting opinion, but not a legally sound one, because of the presumption of innocence. You do get that she's innocent until PROVEN guilty, right? I mean, that's a cornerstone of our legal system that you seem to have decided simply doesn't apply to Clinton.

Cycloptichorn
parados
 
  1  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 12:16 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
If the statute only requires gross negligence and Comey spent 15 minutes detailing Clinton's gross negligence, he made the case she broke the law.


Why don't you read the F...ing statute. It is not made up of only the words "gross negligence". You keep arguing that you know the statute when you clearly don't.

The statutes requires actions that are MORE than gross negligence and MORE than simply receiving emails.

I can only assume this is the part of the statute you are referring to -
Quote:
(f) Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.


Yes, it only requires gross negligence but it has other stipulations that can't be applied.
An email can't be claimed to have been illegally removed from it's proper place of custody. You are left with such a thin argument that a first grader could make the defense in court.
maporsche
 
  2  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 12:16 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Blah blah blah


And it's resorted to this..... shame.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Thu 18 Aug, 2016 12:22 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
He described her actions as extremely careless which means grossly negligent. Ask a lawyer if you don't believe me.

It's your assessment that the FBI didn't find her grossly negligent and not necessarily Comey's.

You keep harping about intent. The statute doesn't require intent. If you think it does, offer proof.

Yes they didn't find that a hostile actor hacked her account but for some reason Comey found it necessary to point out that a sophisticated hacker wouldn't leave traces. Just anal retentive?



 

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