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Book: 'Michael Moore Is A Big Fat Stupid White Man'

 
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2004 09:26 am
Mr. Stillwater, that thing about the other half is what I haven't decided about Moore. If he changes minds, fantastic!! But that's exactly where his sloppiness (and, yes, such sloppiness has been documented plenty) bothers me the most. That people who haven't had the time or inclination to follow politics closely will watch one of his movies, say "really???" then find out well, that's not quite right, nor that... and then they're lost. They can too easily dismiss the entirety because of the sloppiness.

I really liked the New Yorker's review, agreed with most all of it, will post just the last paragraph:

Quote:
Moore can't resist amusing his campus and conspiracy-nut following, along with the gleeful sophomore in all of us, but, as the man said, when you aim at the king you had better kill him. At the moment, the stakes may be too high for shenanigans. "Fahrenheit 9/11" offers the thrill of a coherent explanation for everything, but parts of the movie are no better than a wild, lunging grab at a supposed master plan. Did Bush, as Moore implies, allow Osama bin Laden to survive because of American financial ties to Osama's protectors, the Taliban? (If so, the Pentagon war planners were part of the plot.) Moore is a genuine populist, but what he can't deal with is the unpleasant possibility that Bush, as people used to say of Nixon, has made a shrewd assessment of the lack of virtue and curiosity in the American public. A lot of Americans still admire the ignorant, smirking, chest-out, crotch-forward triumphalism. Michael Moore has become a sensational entertainer of the already converted, but his enduring problem as a political artist is that he has never known how to change anyone's politics.


http://www.newyorker.com/critics/cinema/?040628crci_cinema
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2004 09:27 am
The rebuttal you posted does nothing to answer the charges initially stated. All it does is re-state Moore's original lies in a less vile form. He can stretch the truth as he may, but a lie remains a lie.

I really don't feel like doing a line by line analysis right now, but I am sure that enven you would agree that his rebuttal hardly changes the facts that his movie lied.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2004 09:34 am
I can also agree with most of David Denby's review. Of course, Moore gets off on lighting pants on fire and I am sure he knows it will elicit approval from the choir and hatred from the dissenters. It's also often very funny.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2004 09:36 am
Anyone catch Jon Stewart this week lighting Cheney
s pants on fire? Cheney in a new interview shortly after the announcement of the panel that there was no formal connection between al-Quida and Sadaam stated he had never said that it was definitely confirmed. Stewart proceeds to show an earlier intereview where that is precisely what Cheney does.
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Harper
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2004 09:40 am
McGentrix wrote:
I really don't feel like doing a line by line analysis right now, but I am sure that enven you would agree that his rebuttal hardly changes the facts (sic) that his movie lied.


That's not a fact that's your opinion. Lies require intent. I believe any inaccuracies were the result of not being careful enough. The movie taken as a whole is truthful BTW did you see the movie?
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2004 09:45 am
Oh, no, I believe that Moore intentionally lied. He's a smart guy, he knows how to to get seats filled in the theater and he is firm in his beliefs.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2004 09:52 am
perhaps Moore should re-use Reagan's line when pursued about "the truth" which was "I don't remember"
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2004 10:00 am
Anything can be surreptiously characterized as a lie if that is what one believes. Belief is what one wants to be true, not necessarily what is true. The two authors have out-blowharded even Moore.
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the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2004 11:38 am
Lightwizard wrote:
Anyone catch Jon Stewart this week lighting Cheney
s pants on fire? Cheney in a new interview shortly after the announcement of the panel that there was no formal connection between al-Quida and Sadaam stated he had never said that it was definitely confirmed. Stewart proceeds to show an earlier intereview where that is precisely what Cheney does.


Yes! I saw that, Lightwizard! I was thinking "Thank God 1984 has not come to pass, or there'd be no proof of their repeated lies!" because they just deny stuff over and over again and Americans who can't recall or don't watch or read anything outside the mainstream are eventually convinced they're actually telling the truth! It's true in a way that we are eager to "follow the leader" and want to think what they tell us is truth.
I see it here from righties all the time.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2004 12:03 pm
There are those who worship Bush as if he is Big Brother. Take the first "r" out of Brother and that's more like it.
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the reincarnation of suzy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jun, 2004 12:08 pm
I agree. It' weird.
I wonder if future history books will record this phenomenon? I mean, this dangerous phenomenon?
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2004 11:07 pm
Why won't Moore take Richard Clarke's word for it--HE gave the OK to get the Bin Ladens out of the US.

This is just one of the arguments CNN took Moore to task for in his shlockumentary.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2004 11:20 pm
I don't know about that, Phoenix. Many of the highly successful actors are 'filthy rich' compared to the average, and they are registered democrats.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Jun, 2004 11:31 pm
Quote from McG's first post, "In reality, he was born and raised in the wealthy, lily-white town of Davison, Mich, the authors reveal." Since when did we have a choice on where we are born? How stupid can people get to try to discredit anybody! Jeesh!
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NeoGuin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jun, 2004 04:14 am
I believe a sheep would be an appropiate avatart for Sofia(and a few others on this topic).
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jun, 2004 07:48 am
The fact that Clarke contradicted his testimony under oath is not unusual and it also contradicts what the FBI and the White House has said about letting the Saudi's out of the country by request of the Saudi government. This is a selective double standard -- believe little of what Clarke is saying but accept that one journalistic report. Here's Clarke on the war:


Clarke took issue with some elements of filmmaker Michael Moore's new documentary, "Fahrenheit 9/11," which depicts how the Bush administration allowed Saudi nationals and members of Osama bin Laden's family to leave the United States days after the September 11 attacks.

Clarke said he thought the Saudi government was "perfectly justified" in wanting its citizens to leave the United States out of fears of "vigilantism" by Americans.

The Saudis were not allowed to leave until the FBI cleared them of posing any danger and having knowledge of Osama bin Laden's whereabouts, Clarke said.

Making the incident a big part of the movie was a mistake, said Clarke, who added that he agrees with many things Moore stands for.



http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/26/clarke.iraq.ap/index.html

So Clarke believes one thing after again admitting that he did not alone allow them to leave the US without other government involvement and Moore doesn't agree that without further FBI scrutiny they shouldn't all have been allowed to leave. Then highjackers were Saudis. It's not a conflict of fact, it's a conflict of opinion on the facts.
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jun, 2004 07:55 am
Who else flew out that day? Were there any flights of Israelis? Any flights of French, British or German citizens? How about Kuwaiti citizens? Any ambassadors from any nations? Who else flew that day?

I don't know, do you?

Joe
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jun, 2004 08:02 am
No, just Saudis as I can find. Moore brought it up as more evidence that the Saudis and the Bushes are not-so-strange bedfellows. And it continues to be that way despite the fact that the Saudis are violating principals of human rights as much as anyone in the world. The latest is the laughable amnesty for terrorist which Jon Stewart, Jay Leno and other comics ridiculed (I mention them because the administration is privvy to the fact that it's the way a majority of Americans get their news -- they made sure Laura Bush got onto Leno's show to play the martyr role and she did it in her most demure librarian manner). Now they have to reckon with a critically successful and record breaking box office of Moore's film which they will try anything to ban through their network of right wing organizations (they don't have the balls to do it themselves).

Variety has already reported that the film is poised to top the box office thjis weekend.
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jun, 2004 08:13 am
It just seems so odd to me that just the Saudis flew, the only other planes in the sky that day were the F-16's circling New York and Washington.

I hope the 9/11 commission asked the question "Did anyone else ask to fly out, and if so, why were they denied?" And wouldn't it be remarkable if no other country asked?

Joe
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jun, 2004 08:37 am
Yes, it is remarkable that no other country asked to have citizens flown out. Sadaam certainly wasn't in position to have Iraqis flown out who are the real culprints behind 9/11 Shocked :wink:
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