13
   

Islam Can Not be Trusted wth Historical Treasure

 
 
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2015 03:24 pm
@coldjoint,
Quote:
Who do you think sold the slaves to Westerners? Muslims did


Nonsense the slaves was purchase from many sources and even some tribes sold some of their own members into slavery for a few old rifles and such.

Some Muslims did have a part in providing the slaves but not as Muslims any more then the Christians sea captains of the slave ships was acting in the name of their religion.

The god all of them was acting for was $$$$$$$.
0 Replies
 
coldjoint
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2015 05:11 pm
Quote:
but not as Muslims


Their right to take slaves is very much in keeping with their religion. You refuse to do any research.
Quote:

Under Islamic laws, slavery is explicitly permitted.[145] As Saudi Sheikh Saleh Al-Fawzan, a member of the Senior Council of Clerics had said in 2003, those who argue that slavery is abolished are "ignorant, not scholars. They are merely writers. Whoever says such things is an infidel."[146] Muhammad himself was a slaver. He not only owned many male[147][148] and female[149] slaves, but he also sold, captured, and had sex[150] with his slaves. Even his wives owned slaves. Apologists will claim that Muhammad provided a system that would eventually lead to the abolition of slavery, but this is not true and nowhere does Islamic scripture support such a statement. Yes, Muhammad regulated it and allowed for the manumission of a slave, but this is by no means an obligation. It is clear that Muhammad held no animosity towards slavery,[151] and at times even discouraged the freeing of slaves.[152] He even encouraged racism by exchanging two black slaves for one Arab.[153] As is clear, Muhammad's actions perpetuated the existence of this reprehensible trade by institutionalising it within Islam, This sanction of slavery has helped the Muslim world create one of the largest trans-continental slave trades in history.


Quote:

"....I married a virgin woman in her veil. When I entered upon her, I found her pregnant. (I mentioned this to the Prophet). The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: She will get the dower, for you made her vagina lawful for you. The child will be your slave...." - Abu Dawud 11:2126


http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islamic_Law#Slavery
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2015 05:18 pm
@coldjoint,
Quote:
Under Islamic laws, slavery is explicitly permitted.


An under Christian bible also as slavery had been almost a universal fact of life for almost all advanced cultures for thousands of years and that was completely independent on the religions of those cultures.

Only when technology advance to the point that sheer slave manpower was too costly compare to such things as steam power did slavery died out.
coldjoint
 
  0  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2015 05:30 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
did slavery died out.


Really why was it still legal until 2007 in Mauritania? And there are still slaves in many Muslim countries. Any laws against it are not enforced, Sharia is.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2015 06:09 pm
@coldjoint,
Quote:
Really why was it still legal until 2007 in Mauritania?


Why was it legal in the US until 1865 many generations after it was ended in Europe?

Hell to this very day people are trying to find means to keep blacks from voting in the US.
coldjoint
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2015 07:30 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
Why was it legal in the US until 1865


Does that have anything to do with you talking out of your ass when it comes to Islam?

0 Replies
 
coldjoint
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2015 07:32 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Perhaps you should look at some source


I am not here to make excuses for Islam. That seems to be your job.http://www.alien-earth.com/images/smileys/stickpoke.gif
Ionus
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2015 09:03 pm
@coldjoint,
Churchill and FDR laid claim to leading a Christian country, Stalin had tried to eliminate the role of the Orthodox Church. You raise an interesting point about the culpability of a country to the decisions made by its leaders. Germany was certainly punished for its leaders decisions, who were definitely non-religious.
coldjoint
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2015 09:12 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
Churchill and FDR laid claim to leading a Christian country


Did they lay claim to using Christian doctrine in wartime decisions?
Ionus
 
  2  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2015 09:23 pm
I think slavery is a bit of a dead end.

All religions have sanctioned slavery, though the biggest dealer of it nowadays would be Hinduism with its class culture. Muslims raided the European coastline for hundreds of years, at one stage you could buy a Christian slave in North Africa for the price of a loaf of bread. The main slave trading nation was Muslim, they acquired the slaves from inside Africa and sold them to Christian merchants. The sex slave trade is alive and well in Christian countries. Rome abolished slavery when it became too expensive to own them. England was the first country to abolish slavery around 1100AD yet continued to permit foreigners to be slaves.

Sharia Law still permits slavery and that is concerning whilst Christian countries have at least outlawed it as have Muslim countries. But this push to be Medieval from within Islam is a concern.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2015 09:25 pm
@coldjoint,
Quote:
Did they lay claim to using Christian doctrine in wartime decisions?


Apart from the usual "We have God on our side" references, I am not aware of any claim apart from portraying the enemy as evil.
0 Replies
 
coldjoint
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2015 09:31 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
Sharia Law still permits slavery


And always will because it cannot be changed. If it is, Islam no longer exists.
Ionus
 
  3  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2015 09:45 pm
@coldjoint,
No, Sharia Law is different from the Koran. Islam can exist without Sharia Law and does so in most Muslim countries.
coldjoint
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2015 09:54 pm
@Ionus,
does so in most Muslim countries.

Quote:
Since the early Islamic states of the eighth and ninth centuries, sharia always existed alongside other normative systems.[1] Most Muslim-majority countries adopt various aspects of sharia. According to BBC, some countries adopt only a few aspects of Sharia, others apply the entire code.[2]


Looks like you need some Sharia. Political Islam is Islam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_of_sharia_law_by_country
Quote:
No, Sharia Law is different from the Koran

Sharia law comes from the Koran and hadith
Quote:
the fascism in Islam that originated from the primary (Quran) and secondary (Hadith) texts in the form of Sharia (Islamic law). The barbaric laws and rules of Sharia are causing the Muslims to suffer the most. Fact of the matter is, these so called Allah’s laws are nothing but the ancient Arab Paganic ruthless tribal social justice which had been cleverly ingrained in Islam and now causing the humanity to suffer.


http://www.islam-watch.org/authors/79-mirza/625-islamic-sharia-law-in-brief.html

Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Reply Wed 11 Mar, 2015 11:56 pm
@coldjoint,
coldjoint wrote:
I am not here to make excuses for Islam. That seems to be your job
I actually referred to source from Christianity. But may be the Pope was a Muslim.
coldjoint
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2015 11:34 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
I actually referred to source from Christianity.


And when you refer to anything Christian it is an apology for Islam. I thought you were smart Wally, pay attention.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2015 08:49 pm
@coldjoint,
You need to understand a reference before you quote it. It is clear from your reference Islam can and does exist without Sharia Law.

There is an argument within Islam as to how to follow the Prophets example. He was born into a brutal tribal justice system, yet a little bit of insight shows he was not a violent or vindictive man. Some of little intelligence (Christianity has its share of those) only see the literal, yet there are many examples of Mohammed's compassion and steering away from those purely Arabic traditions of law.
coldjoint
 
  0  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2015 09:22 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
yet a little bit of insight shows he was not a violent or vindictive man.


Some examples please. The Hadith clearly shows a monster.
Quote:
only see the literal,


The Koran itself says it is literal, and not interpreting that way is blasphemy.
Quote:
I decided to make my point by relying on what is stated in verse 3:7 of the Quran regarding the interpretation of its contents.



Three translations of this verse, done by Yusuf Ali, Pickthall and Shakir, read:



YUSUF ALI: [He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.



PICKTHAL: He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.



SHAKIR: He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation, but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.]




http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/MohammadAsghar60419.htm

If you don't like the source the interpretations can be checked.
coldjoint
 
  0  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2015 09:31 pm
http://www.islam-watch.org/Assets/Title-graphic.jpg

[quote]Islam Under Scrutiny by Ex-Muslims
[/quote]

Same article

http://www.islam-watch.org/MAsghar/Interpretation.htm
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Mar, 2015 10:00 pm
@coldjoint,
Quote:
Some examples please. The Hadith clearly shows a monster.


Lets look at this from a purely objective point of view. What stops the Devil from interfering with the process that God has in mind. Such as recording what we are supposed to do....but God gave us intelligence and a sense of what is right and wrong. That is our main weapons against evil, not parroting verse.

Lets take the example of when Mohammed was crossing the desert and one of his wives realised she had left a locket at the oasis. She went back to get it and when she returned to the caravan she was with a young man who had been looking for Mohammed. They were laughing and enjoying their youth together. The elders wanted to put them both to death for "obvious" fornication. The two were stunned. They were innocent. Mohammed changed to law to say there must be witnesses.

The actual quote of Mohammed that is used to justify covering women is about not appearing as a prostitute. They would wear very heavy jewelry and expose a leg out of their dress, along with make up and would make gestures with their lips and eyes. Working women would have their hair covered as it was too hard to get the dirt out unless you had your days free like prostitutes. Mohammed wanted ordinary women to avoid any appearance of a prostitute to avoid rape and rumours. He said women had to dress the same as ordinary women around them. Brought into modern context, I think he would have been happy to see women in jeans, a full top and the hair tied back.
 

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