1
   

Same-sex marriage CXVI...

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 01:41 pm
I didn't quote any stats ebeth. I just said they are out there to Google up. I said I could find some when I get time.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 02:07 pm
Cyclo did his/her homework trying to prove your point. Found the opposite. If you want to disagree - it's your point.

Cyclo's made a point - with evidence.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 02:19 pm
Okay. If you wish to take any study rather than a scientifically credible study, I don't really care. I was just aware of all the stuff that is out there and stated a caution regarding that. I suspect all those who want to be right rather than perceived as right will want credible evidence. The others won't care.
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 02:22 pm
Very convenient stance, that. It's hard enough within the social sciences to find people who agree on what constitutes a scientifically credible study, let alone among lay people -- especially without examples to discuss.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 02:26 pm
But on this issue I'm just a lay person with an opinion like everybody else PD. I didn't have time to hunt up the links when I expressed my opinion and advised that they were available to google up by anybody. And made a subsequent comment that both credible and questionable links were available to google up by anybody. If that is a 'convenient stance' then it's a convenient stance. It was convenient for me at the time.
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 02:30 pm
That's fine, but it's hard to consider your evidence when we don't know which ones you consider credible. Personally, I think it's a non-issue, but it's not much use just to say, "Oh, there are studies out there that back me up," and then say, "Oh, not those!" when someone comes back with some of them. The process of elimination becomes a bit cumbersome.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 02:45 pm
Um I didn't say "oh not those". I issued my second thought about the studies in general and went to work. Smile
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 02:57 pm
Sorry, I paraphrased based on my perception of your response. Any lack of validity of the evidence presented by Cyclop does nothing to validate sources that you have not produced.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 03:01 pm
Damn straight.

(Poor choice of words?)
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 03:15 pm
ROFL. Well I don't ever require anybody to agree with me or even believe me based purely on my opinion. It's nice when somebody does, but I fully understand when they don't. And I agree, that Cyclop produced sources and I did not.

Seriously, however--don't you just hate when somebody says seriously however?-- I doubt many people would find credible a series of studies done by or funded by tobacco growers/cigarette manufacturers that seemed to say that smoking is good for you. Similarly there have been numerous studies done by or funded by groups who promote gay marriage, adoption of children by gays, etc. etc. A close look will usually indicate no substantiation for the method or that the sampling used was too small to be statistically significant.

And that's why I cautioned to use results from studies from organizations who have no dogs in the fight. Those we can be reasonably confident were done objectively.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 03:21 pm
Foxfyre, here's the thing:

If you don't want to be taken seriously, there is no problem. Say your opinion, fail to back it up with any empirical evidence, say that you WILL when you have time, continue to fail to back it up, cast aspersions here and there, and fail to back it up.

It'll work great, you won't be taken seriously.

If you DO want to be taken seriously, take a little time and find some of those objective, peer-reviewed, scientifically sound studies with no dog in the fight that support your argument.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 03:33 pm
Foxfyre here is what you said.
Foxfyre wrote:
Country after country have conducted these studies and every single one comes to the same conclusion. Children of all races, ethnic, and socio/ economic groups do better financially, emotionally, and socially when they are raised in a home by a mother and a father.

Further in societies where strong two-parent families (mother and father) are the norm, there is less poverty, less crime, and a better quality of life by most people's standards.

You have a habit of stating your opinion in a manner that makes it appear to be substantiated. That is just my opinion.

I suspect that if such studies were produced they would be comparing two parent families to single parent families, which is NOT the point of discussion here.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 03:41 pm
The point is Sozobe, I didn't have the time when this came up. I gave a suggestion where the information could be found.

I will continue to do my own thing which will often use my own reason and logic for an opinion I hold and I give others the same respect when their opinion is respectfully presented. Sometimes posted sources are useful. Usually they are just somebody else's opinion that might or might not be more informed than A2K members.

Initially I didn't have the time though I did have it in mind to get the link. Now that everybody's mind seems to be chiseled in granite on this issue, it seems futile to spend the time.

And if that means my opinion won't be taken seriously, so be it. I doubt any links I posted would change that perception.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 03:52 pm
What ehBeth and others have been saying is that if you make a definitive claim, it is on YOU to back it up.

If you don't, you'll have a hard time being taken seriously.

Which is evidently fine with you, which is cool.
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 03:56 pm
Quote:
I doubt many people would find credible a series of studies done by or funded by tobacco growers/cigarette manufacturers that seemed to say that smoking is good for you. Similarly there have been numerous studies done by or funded by groups who promote gay marriage, adoption of children by gays, etc. etc. A close look will usually indicate no substantiation for the method or that the sampling used was too small to be statistically significant.


Agreed -- agreed enthusiastically, even. I've been poking around a social science database throw the U. Wisc. library for a few minutes here (http://biblioline.nisc.com) and haven't found any compelling abstracts whatsoever.

Fer instance, I get things like this:
Quote:
Author: Kurdek, Lawrence A.

Source: Journal of Family Issues, 22(6), 727-754; 2001 ISSN: 0192-513X

Notes: 65 refs.; 3 tables

Publication Type: Journal Article

Abstract:
Both partners from gay, lesbian, heterosexual-parent, and heterosexual-nonparent couples completed surveys at seven time points (n = 150, 102, 90, and 108 couples, respectively, at the first assessment) that assessed variables from the following five domains relevant to close relationships: individual differences, relationship schemas, conflict resolution, social support, and relationship quality. Although the type-of-couple differences that were significant were nearly all small in size relative to partners from heterosexual-nonparent couples, those from gay or lesbian couples reported less social support from family members, those from lesbian couples reported more positive relationship quality, and those from heterosexual-parent couples reported more negative relationship quality.


Which is pretty much nothing, right?

Well, there is the affidavit of Steven Nock of the sociology department at the University of Virginia, who concludes that there is not sufficient research to support the claim that gay parenting (for lack of a better term) does not have a deletorious impact on child-rearing. It's a response to another individual's affidavit that it there was no negative impact, but it is notable that Professor Nock does not present any studies indicating that there is a negative impact, either. You can download it if you want -- the first 40 pages or so is a rundown of statiscal methods. I do present the warning that it's a big file, though: PDF link

I did retrieve a review on the subject from "Marriage and Family Review" (http://www.haworthpressinc.com/web/MFR/ , though I may only be able to retrieve the article because I log in through the university) that I have not had a chance to read. Citation info is Fitzgerald, B. Children of Lesbian and Gay Parents: A Review of the Literature. Marriage and Family Rev., 29(1):57-75, 1999.

I haven't had a chance to read the thing, but the abstract concludes:

Quote:
The body of literature generally concludes that children with lesbian and gay parents are developing psychologically, intellectually, ehaviorally, and emotionally in positive directions, and that the sexual orientation of parents is not an effective or important predictor of successful child
development. The paper also includes a discussion of the limitations of these studies, provides suggestions for future research, and discusses the challenge these families pose for the meaning and definition of family.


Again, though, I'm leery of these sorts of things, and the author of the review was a grad student at SUNY Albany, so who knows what the agenda is. If someone is really interested in reading the thing -- I must admit that I'm not -- I can email it along. In a very brief skim, the sample sizes of the cited studies were small. On a subject like this, though, it's going to be very hard to generate a large sample, and the most important thing is not the size of the sample but whether it was random or not.

Charlotte Patterson's 1992 review in Child Development reaches the same conclusion, but that is a very old review.
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 04:00 pm
Quote:
Initially I didn't have the time though I did have it in mind to get the link. Now that everybody's mind seems to be chiseled in granite on this issue, it seems futile to spend the time.


Mine's not chiseled -- hell, I don't really care what the studies show, because that's not what informs my opinion (as ill-informed as it may be) on this topic. So, just for the sake of intellectual curiosity, show me something.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 04:06 pm
Well damn it PD. A request like that is damn near irrisistible. I'll see what I can find. Smile
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 04:08 pm
Great, I'm about to log off, and prolly won't be back 'til Monday. I will bookmark and check back, however (just so's you don't think I'm being a prick and skipping out).
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 05:05 pm
Just as long as it's not some study by Prof. Hammermammerwalenstein from Tijuana Institute of Technology
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2004 05:06 pm
And I'm definitely sticking in to see what Foxfyre's got to offer. I'm very interested in social psych ( a minor in a distant past ), and am keen to see what else is out there in terms of research.

Quote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Country after country have conducted these studies and every single one comes to the same conclusion. Children of all races, ethnic, and socio/ economic groups do better financially, emotionally, and socially when they are raised in a home by a mother and a father.

Further in societies where strong two-parent families (mother and father) are the norm, there is less poverty, less crime, and a better quality of life by most people's standards.


I haven't been able to find these studies - I'm finding research like that offered by Cyclo and PeppermintPatioDog. I am open to reading other studies and looking at their sources. I'm here to learn.

I'm also very interested in the reference to suggestion that there is less poverty, less crime and a better quality of life in societies where strong two-parent families are the norm. There are a number of countries in the world where the two-parent family is the norm - and they are damn poverty-stricken and without any decent quality of life. At least that's what I've been reading about lately.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.03 seconds on 01/22/2025 at 02:05:35