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Same-sex marriage CXVI...

 
 
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2004 02:17 am
Quote:
Lovers in a Dangerous Time

Same-sex marriage, religion and the great escape from loneliness

By R. V. Scheide

Being lonely sucks. Maybe Greta Garbo vanted to be alone, but for the rest of us, we pair off, hanging on to our partners 'til death us do part, or, short of that, for as long as we can stand them. Civilization itself sprouted from the seeds of loneliness, and today it is the rare person who stands alone, who sticks up for his or her own beliefs, no matter how odd or repugnant these beliefs may seem to others. That's why Roy Lamoreaux was just about the loneliest man in the room at the Sebastopol City Council meeting Tuesday night, March 16.

The council was scheduled to vote on a resolution proposing that the Sonoma County clerk begin issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples. Citizens from Guerneville to Petaluma, including a large number of lesbian and gay couples, packed the room in support of the resolution, which passed unanimously.

Like many of the resolutions proposed by the Green Party-dominated Sebastopol City Council, its effect will mostly be symbolic. It would by no means make same-sex marriage legal in Sonoma County. Nevertheless, Roy was on hand to vehemently oppose the resolution.

It was the last place Roy, a 45-year-old devout Mormon, ever imagined he'd find himself. But a month earlier, newly elected San Francisco mayor Gavin Newsom had shocked mainstream America by permitting same-sex marriages in San Francisco County. From Feb. 10 until March 11, when the California Supreme Court intervened, 4,100 gay and lesbian couples, including many from the North Bay, flocked to San Francisco to tie the knot. And a line of newlyweds, ministers and other same-sex marriage supporters were queued that night for the opportunity to speak during the public comments portion of the council meeting.

Roy, oblivious to the growing line, sat outside by himself in a folding chair in the community center's overflow section, nervously concentrating on what he planned to say at the lectern. Lanky, mild-mannered, with a neatly manicured mustache, the Rohnert Park resident might easily be mistaken for a same-sex marriage supporter.

But Roy's a religious man. Raised as a Pentecostal, he converted to the Latter Day Saints when he was 21. Those theologies taught him that same-sex marriage is not just a moral wrong, but a moral evil--fire-and-brimstone evil. As one woman finished talking, Roy took advantage of the pause between speakers and suddenly lurched up to the lectern.

"This is the minority's opinion," he said, sputtering before catching his rhythm. "The gay-rights issue only affects about 2 to 3 percent of the population," he continued, correctly noting that according to most polls, a majority of Americans and even most Californians don't favor same-sex marriage. "I would like them to look back in history, to Rome and Sodom and Gomorrah, and see what happened to them. My God, if families are not protected, this nation will be destroyed!"

Someone then pointed out that he'd spoken out of turn, and blushing politely, Roy scurried back to his seat. He was still the loneliest person in the room, but he was confident that God was on his side. After all, the institution of marriage was under attack, and all it would take for evil to prevail was for good to do nothing.

The sun cut through the morning mist shrouding the forests around Guerneville by 10am the next Sunday morning, just in time for services at Metropolitan Community Church of the Redwood Empire in Oddfellows Hall to begin. Unlike such larger denominations as the Mormon and Catholic churches, Metropolitan caters to gays and lesbians who wish to worship openly instead of pretending to be straight.

Excommunication stories from the larger religious ranks are common among Metropolitan's congregation. Imagine you discover you're gay, look to your Pentecostal pastor for help, and instead of turning the other cheek, he boots you right out of the church.

That's precisely what happened to Tim Davis, 47, as a teenager growing up in Portland. He quit going to church altogether until discovering Metropolitan several years ago. He enjoys the small-church "Sunday morning coming down" atmosphere at Oddfellows Hall, and is a member of the choir. He drives up from San Francisco for services every weekend, staying in the Guerneville cabin he shares with husband Wayne Joiner, 55.

That's not a misprint. Tim and Wayne were married by Metropolitan pastor Elisabeth Middelberg in San Francisco on Feb. 13. As she noted during her Sunday sermon, "Jesus has been known to tweak with people's belief systems."

Wayne knows all about that. He grew up in Georgia knowing he was gay early on and took the cure at age 19: he got married. He knew it was a mistake from the get-go, but stayed married for 26 years. Tim's attempted cure at age 23 wasn't as long-lived; his straight marriage crashed and burned after just nine short months.

For both men, having society's official stamp of approval on their marriage, if only for the moment, is more a civil matter than a spiritual or religious issue. "I don't feel like a second-class citizen anymore," Tim says.

As members of San Francisco's gay community, which has been ravaged by HIV and AIDS for the past 20 years, they're quite familiar with the grim red tape longtime same-sex partners must negotiate just to ensure that personal property can be bequeathed to loved ones rather than being snatched from the grave by hostile surviving members of the deceased's family. Tim and Wayne won't have to go through that now.

Both are still relatively healthy. Wayne suffers from a debilitating form of arthritis but is HIV-negative, and Tim, who is HIV-positive, could easily live another 20 years if he keeps taking his medication. They've built a comfortable but modest life together. A small apartment in San Francisco, a home entertainment system they're still making payments on, a car, a pet parrot. Now that they're married, they've gained a little peace of mind.

"It's not that we have much," Tim says. "But I don't want Wayne being emptied out by my family."

Tim and Wayne refer to each other as husband and husband, but the phrase of choice emerging from San Francisco's month of gay marriages is "spouses for life." That's how Petaluma residents Randy Hansen and Dean Westergard, who tied the knot in San Francisco on Feb. 14, now refer to each other.

"We've been together 35 years, so there hasn't been a big difference," Randy says in a telephone interview. "We've always loved each other." Randy and Dean had been together longer than any of the hundreds of other same-sex couples waiting in line at San Francisco City Hall, so the lesbian couple who had staked out first place in line gave up their spot to them, making Randy and Dean the first couple to be married on Valentine's Day. Relatives from their native southeastern Idaho later saw them on that evening's NBC national newscast. They've come a long way since moving to California in 1975.

Like Tim and Wayne, Randy and Dean also wanted to set a precedent in case one of them should die. "Both of our families are loving," Dean says. "But when money is on the table, things can get ugly." Prior to getting married, they'd entered a domestic partnership and established a living trust. Officially sanctioned marriage is one more piece of legal evidence proving their lifelong commitment to one another.

Santa Rosans Donna Piepgras, 55, and Lucie James, 60, have been together 20 years and never thought same-sex marriage would be legal during their lifetimes. When Mayor Newsom first presented the chance, Donna balked, and the couple argued about it.

"To me it was a big deal, I really wanted to go!" Lucie says. "I wanted to be married, just like everybody else."

Donna relented, and they were married on Feb. 15. "The whole experience was totally awesome," Lucie gushes. "It was like a love-fest without the sex and the drugs," Donna deadpans.

Both women are surprised to find that marriage has added a whole new dimension to their relationship.

"There is a feeling of commitment that is different for me," Donna says.

"I didn't realize how validated I would feel," Lucie adds. "It doesn't change the amount of love we feel for each other, but it's all about love, and that really feels good to me."

For the most part, co-workers, friends and family members have reacted positively to their marriage. Lucie's sister, estranged for 15 years, recently made contact and will soon visit with her new husband. Donna's parents are still trying to figure out what to make of it all, and have yet to return the e-mail announcing their daughter's same-sex marriage.

Donna and Lucie don't talk about who's going to get their stuff when they die, but like their male counterparts, they seem to view marriage as a civil issue, not a moral or religious matter. When they say that same-sex marriage makes them feel validated, it's civil society that's stamping the ticket. Gaining any specific religion's seal of approval is another matter entirely. Even when the discussion is confined to Judeo-Christian belief systems, widespread agreement on the issue of same-sex marriage is difficult to reach.

Roy Lamoreaux says that plenty of friends have told him privately that same-sex marriage is like saying "two plus two equals three." But not one of them volunteered to go to the city council and say that in public. Roy found the implications of same-sex marriage so alarming he decided to take the burden upon himself.

Roy's easy to talk to, with a worldview filtered through the twin prisms of Mormonism and perhaps a tad too much Fox News. Same-sex marriage threatens the moral fabric of the country from within, he says, even as it makes us look "weak and vulnerable" to our terrorist enemies abroad.

"The gay lifestyle is looked at around the world as evil and wrong by Muslims and other groups," he explains. "They would feel justified in praying to Allah to have us all wiped off the map."

Roy feels that the freedoms granted by the Constitution and the institution of marriage are inseparable, and that the evil in same-sex marriage corrodes the foundations of both. "The Founding Fathers had a reason to trust the people," he says softly. "They were a moral people. I don't think this is the right way to take our country."

The idea that marriage is a sacred right granted only to a man and a woman is shared by most of the major Christian denominations, Catholicism and Mormonism included. The New Testament passage most often cited as supporting this view is Rom. 1: 26-28: "For this reason, God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error."

But as the Rev. Middelberg points out in a research paper she wrote while studying at Church Divinity School of the Pacific, in order to understand the text's meaning, it must be placed in the historical context of its author, Paul. When Paul writes that women and men exchanged "natural" intercourse for "unnatural intercourse," Middelberg argues that he's referring to the social hierarchy of his native Tarsus, A.D. 5-67.

Free men owned slaves and were placed over women and children in a "natural order" based on social status; free men were permitted to have sex with free women, free male youth and slaves of either sex. Teachers were permitted to have sex with students. Free adult males were forbidden to have sex with other free adult males; likewise for free adult females, who were also forbidden to have sex with slaves.

"When Paul talks about what is natural, he is talking about this particular construction of sexuality," Middelberg writes. "Without adopting the same worldview in the 20th century, it is hard to use this text to condemn homosexuality as it is lived out in today's society."

So it goes with the Old Testament passages used most often to condemn homosexuality, Leviticus and the story of Sodom and Gomorrah cited by Roy at the Sebastopol City Council meeting. It's all a matter of historical interpretation.

"As I said at the [city council] meeting," Rabbi Michael Robinson recalls on the telephone, "I take the Bible seriously--too seriously to take it literally. Biblical literalism does not make sense. In Leviticus, it says 'love thy neighbor.' But it also says if you have a stubborn rebellious child, stone him."

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah is told in Gen. 19: 4-11. Lot settles with his family in Sodom, a city reputed to be as inhospitable as neighboring Gomorrah. When two angels come down to investigate, Lot offers them his home for the night. The neighbors object. "Bring the visitors out unto us, that we may know them," they pound on Lot's door. He offers up his daughters, which fails to satiate the mob. The angels smite the crowd with blindness, and the next morning, after Lot escapes, God levels Sodom and Gomorrah with fire and brimstone.

"The cities were destroyed for not recognizing the obligations of hospitality, and the whole story is a moral allegory on the dire effects of inhospitality," writes British scholar Rictor Norton in his book A History of Homophobia. Norton writes that most modern Biblical scholars, aside from the more evangelistic ones, accept this interpretation.

No doubt Roy Lamoreaux and many other Christians and Jews will refute such interpretations. But the interpretations are out there, and anyone searching for an open-and-shut case for or against same-sex marriage in the Bible will be disappointed. Attempting to apply a modern meaning to the texts of antiquity is fraught with potential misinterpretation. Perhaps that's one reason the Founding Fathers saw the wisdom in separating church from state.

Not every progressive thinks that same-sex marriage is an inherently good thing. "Why rejoice when state and church extend their grip, which is what marriage is all about?" asks Alexander Cockburn in a recent essay in the online edition of Counterpunch. "Assimilation is not liberation, and the invocation of 'equality' as the great attainment of these gay marriages should be challenged.

"ssues of hospitals visits or healthcare should have nothing to do with marriage, and marriage as a rite should have nothing to do with legal rights," he continues. "Separate 'marriage' from legal recognition of a bond, of a kinship. . . . Get religion out of the law."

Like Cockburn, Sebastopol civil attorney Peter Mancus supports legal unions for same-sex couples but is concerned that advocates of same-sex marriage may be mistaken in assuming lesbians and gays are covered by state and federal equal-protection laws.

"I think that current California law that says marriage must be limited to a heterosexual couple does not violate the equal-protection clause," Mancus elaborates later by phone. In order to invoke the equal-protection clause, same-sex marriage advocates have to clear two hurdles: the strict-scrutiny test and the rational-basis test. The first hurdle is higher than the second. If same-sex opponents can show that there is the slightest rational basis for making a distinction that excludes homosexuals from marriage, then the strict-scrutiny test cannot be applied, and the case will fail.

"A lot of people will probably cringe when I articulate what I think some of the rational bases are," he says. Suppose, he suggests, studies showed that the rate of HIV infection was much higher among homosexual males than the rest of the population. Since HIV can result in AIDS and AIDS has no known cure, an argument could be made that there is a rational basis for making a distinction between heterosexuals and homosexuals when it comes to the societal sanctioning of marriage. Mancus thinks a much stronger argument for same-sex marriage can be made using the Ninth Amendment.

"The Founding Fathers knew that it was impossible for them to think up all the rights in advance," he says. "The Ninth Amendment was intended as a reservation of those rights." Even, perhaps, a right for same-sex couples to marry.

For now, the same-sex marriages have come to a halt, but not soon enough for Roy Lamoreaux. As a recently divorced father, he's experienced the deteriorating institution that is modern American marriage firsthand.

In fact, his ex-wife left him for a woman. "It's not funny!" he protests good-naturedly.

Heidi Lamoreaux and her new partner, Panther, were among the first same-sex couples to wed in San Francisco.

Roy found out about the wedding from his seven-year-old daughter, with whom he and his ex-wife share joint custody. He was surprised at the news, but not shocked. Since coming out as a lesbian and divorcing him in 2000, Heidi has become an outspoken advocate for the cause. Roy's still fond of her, and says that Panther is "a nice and nurturing person. I just don't agree with them on the morality issue."

Heidi was raised as a Mormon in Bonneville, Utah, and met Roy while on missionary duty. He was 33, she was 26, and both were relatively old to be single and childless in a religion that puts such a heavy emphasis on marriage and procreation. They had a baby and lasted six years before Heidi discovered who she really is. The church excommunicated her and she hasn't spoken to her parents since, but she and Panther, now spouses for life, are happy. She still has a soft spot for her ex, too.

"I respect him for standing up for what he believes in," Heidi says. "His dream family was destroyed by this whole issue."

It's something, to stand up before a priest or a justice of the peace and pledge to love another human being for the rest of your life. It used to be insurance that you wouldn't be spending your old age alone.

Most marriages don't last that long these days, as Roy Lamoreaux can testify. Don't feel sorry for him, though. No matter what you think about his beliefs, Roy's a nice guy, and while nice guys may finish last, they very rarely spend long periods of time alone. The right woman is waiting out there somewhere. Or who knows? Perhaps it's the right man. Either way, it sure beats the heck out of being lonely.


Source: http://www.metroactive.com/papers/sonoma/03.31.04/gay-marriage-0414.html
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 9,226 • Replies: 201
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2004 06:29 am
It took me a time of reading and some close associations with people who became close friends who happen to be gay in order for me to understand that there are degrees of gayness and that strongly/totally gay people are born that way. For them it is not a choice. As there is no known gene pool for it, it cannot be reasoned I think that it is not a deviation from 'normal' but it would be in the sense that any biological characteristic can at times be a deviation from 'normal'. Therefore I can in no way think of being gay as in any way being immoral any more than a person born with a propensity for diabetes or baldness or bad eyesight or double jointed or unusually tall or short is immoral.

(I don't have any links for the following but later on can get plenty or any of you can google up the stats.)

I also believe marriage is the most stabilizing institution in any industrialized country. When strong, lasting marriages are the norm, there is less abortion, less child neglect, less crime, less poverty. And while single parents do and will continue to do heroic and competent jobs of raising their children and their kids turn out just fine, study after study has shown that collectively, children of all ethnic, racial, and socio/economic groups do better emotionally, financially, and socially when they grow up with a mother and father in the home. Marriage has come under tough times in the last several decades, and I think the focus should be on strengthening it, not weakening it or rendering it more irrelevant. The people who have most suffered as a result of the decline of marriage have been the children. The children should be our number one priority and concern in this issue.

Back to my gay friends who are in monogamous relationships and who want the same advantages and protections enjoyed by married people such as hospital visitation, rights of inheritance, etc:

We, my gay friends and I, have discussed and agree that they have all the rights of heterosexuals now. Any unmarried person of legal age is free to marry any other single person of legal age who is the opposite sex. To provide some same sex persons with the right to 'marry' would be a 'special' right denied to other same sex couples who are not gay. That a gay person would not choose to marry a person of the opposite sex is irrelevant. He/she has the right to do so. And what is now equal rights under the law would become unequal.

Therefore if gays are extended legal marriage, why not any two same sex persons, even heterosexuals, have the same advantage? And why limit to two people? Why not allow any group of people who choose to live together and support and protect each other to form into a family unit?

I have no problem with that whatsoever. I just don't want them to call it 'marriage'. I want marriage to continue to refer to one man and one woman and presumes the possibility of children.

By all means lets change the law to permit gay people who love and support each other to be officially recognized as immediate family. But lets pick another word for that and leave the institution of marriage alone.
0 Replies
 
Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2004 01:59 pm
What is the definition for the institute of marriage in your eyes Foxfyre? Does it really has to depend on the possibility of having children?
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2004 02:02 pm
My aunt is barren. She can't have children, and never has been able to.

Should she be considered 'married?' Her relationship never had any possibility of leading to the procreation of new kids.

What is so sacred about the 'institution' of mairrage that we have to leave it alone? Are there possibly religious reasons behind this argument?

Cycloptichorn
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saintsfanbrian
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2004 02:23 pm
The one true test to legal Gay Marriages is when one of the parties has to file for Divorce to get away from the other one.

As it stands right now, if Melissa Ethridge wants to leave her "partner" all she has to legally do is leave. Same with Rosie O'Donnell (since she resides in New York and they don't recognize that peice of paper that she has.)

As for 2 gay people wanting to have a Union - oh go ahead. Just call it that and not a marriage. Is that so difficult to understand that people who read the bible and pray in churches don't want their "holy" act of commital "impuned" by people that are in their eyes "heathens?" If a civil union were to carry with it the same rights and responsibilities as a marriage, what difference is there other than a name. I think Shakespear wrote it best when he wrote "A Rose by any other name would smell as sweet" so call it a union and be done with it. That gets congress, the church and everyone else off of your case for a little bit of semantics.
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Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2004 02:25 pm
Point is that there are gay couples who are religious and therefore want a marriage, and not "just" a civil union.
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saintsfanbrian
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2004 02:28 pm
And if their church will grant them a Ceremony, they can formalize their civil union in the church in this way. Not too many of the "Established" religions are going to grant that ceremony. The Catholics, Baptists, and many others do not condone the homosexual act. They will pray for you but they don't condone it so I don't see Dr. Rogers getting up in front of the church and performing a ceremony for two men or two women. Nor do I see the Arch Bishop of Canterburry doing one.
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Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2004 02:30 pm
If it were only that simple...
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2004 02:35 pm
Why are gay rights more important than hetero rights?

Hetero people want marriage to be between a man and a woman. Why must that be infringed upon by homosexuals?
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2004 02:35 pm
In the scale of human existence, marriage is a new enough concept that it should still be open to changes in the definition.

The religions that lay claim to defining the term are even newer. They've got no more right to the term than any other organization/group.
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saintsfanbrian
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2004 02:36 pm
It is that simple. Create a civil union (not a marriage) and let same sex couples fill out the paper work and get one granted (just like a marriage license only with out the word marriage.) This would end a lot of debate on the topic. I understand that gays want the same rights as far as health care, right of survivor ship, right to adopt (wait that one is already there) etc. Right to pay more taxes (since married couples with no kids pay higher taxes then 2 single people.)

I don't have a problem with those things. I have a problem with the word marriage. That is it, and I would bet that the majority of people that are against this, feel the same way I do.
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saintsfanbrian
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2004 02:38 pm
McG and others - white middle class males will always have fewer rights than any other group out there. Something about the way the world works.

Claim I am wrong, but who can't speak his mind in public with out worrying about offending some one? Who is not hired for a job, if the company can hire a minority in the same spot regardless of qualifications (I have seen it first hand so don't tell me it doesn't happen.)
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2004 02:38 pm
Another point for you: THe word 'mairrage is NOT copyrighted by Christianity. Many other religions and cultures have the concept as well. Therefore, to say that mairrage is a Christian concept, and only Christian values should apply, is not a sustainable argument.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2004 02:42 pm
Frankly, I don't understand why anyone, pro- or anti-, is so hung up on what to call it. But I don't give much of a shite for traditional "marriage," so maybe that's it. "We don't need no piece of paper from the city hall," and all that.

This jumps out at me...
Quote:
To provide some same sex persons with the right to 'marry' would be a 'special' right denied to other same sex couples who are not gay.


How would same sex heteros be denied this right?

Quote:
Therefore if gays are extended legal marriage, why not any two same sex persons, even heterosexuals, have the same advantage? And why limit to two people? Why not allow any group of people who choose to live together and support and protect each other to form into a family unit?


Why not, indeed?
0 Replies
 
saintsfanbrian
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2004 02:45 pm
You're right OneEye but, for years Cities, States and Counties have been issuing Marriage Licenses to ONE MAN and ONE WOMAN. So it has come to be synonymous with that union. I would still like to know what the Gay populations problem is with calling it a union? As long as all of the same rights are afforded with it, what is the problem? I thought that was what it was about. Or is the true purpose to put yet another nail in the coffin of "family values?" Or for that should I say the "majorities" concept of what is right and wrong?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2004 02:45 pm
saintsfanbrian wrote:
It is that simple. Create a civil union (not a marriage) and let same sex couples fill out the paper work and get one granted (just like a marriage license only with out the word marriage.) This would end a lot of debate on the topic. I understand that gays want the same rights as far as health care, right of survivor ship, right to adopt (wait that one is already there) etc. Right to pay more taxes (since married couples with no kids pay higher taxes then 2 single people.)

I don't have a problem with those things. I have a problem with the word marriage. That is it, and I would bet that the majority of people that are against this, feel the same way I do.


This was pretty much my solution awhile back. Dissolve all marriages. create a civil union that affords a couple certain rights and responsibilities.

Then, if a couple chooses to, they can then have a celebration at the local religious establishment of their choice that has no legal binding, but fulfills an individual need to be recognized by their peers and religion.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2004 02:47 pm
McG - your solution has been the standard in Quebec for many years, as well as in several European countries. The civil union is the only legal one, with a religous service of commitment as a later option.
0 Replies
 
Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2004 02:48 pm
McGentrix wrote:
Why are gay rights more important than hetero rights?


They aren't. Point is that heterosexuals already have the rights, while homosexuals are still not fully accepted and therefore lack certain rights they should have. They get more attention, that is, but how should they be more important, if there is no way the rights of heterosexuals are at stake?

saintsfanbrian wrote:
It is that simple


That is not the "simple" I think off. I would suggest you think about how many Church institutions would really, for real, close the same-sex civil unions you speak off.
0 Replies
 
Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2004 02:51 pm
saintsfanbrian wrote:
I would still like to know what the Gay populations problem is with calling it a union? As long as all of the same rights are afforded with it, what is the problem?


Is it maybe because, on a subtile way, there is still a distinction being made between heterosexuals and homosexuals?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Jun, 2004 02:54 pm
Maybe that's because there IS a distinction between hetero and homosexuals?

I very rarely see anyone flaunt their heterosexuality...
0 Replies
 
 

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