Same-sex marriage CXVI...

Well I believe the preponderance of the evidence indicates that children benefit from having a loving father and mother in the home. Those of you who have a problem with that, though I can't for the life of me think of any credible reason that you should, will no doubt dispute any evidence that does not fit what you wish the facts to be. I will also guess that neither Mesquite or Cyclop have bothered to read through all the material posted on the link or do any research on their own.

And assertions that my opinions are based on religion or whatever says a whole lot more about your prejudices than they do mine.

And how about homosexual kids who are adopted by heterosexual parents?

My gay friends tell me they benefitted from having a mom and a dad and wouldn't have wanted it to be any other way.

That's a comprehensive survey. How many gay friends do you have?

And were they adopted?

As I recall, Foxfyre, you've had very negative things (self-centred, etc) to say about all 23 of your homosexual acquaintances. I guess we can say they were not raised very well by their heterosexual parents. That's very helpful statistical evidence right there, don't you think?

I did take a look at quite a few of the links you posted. Most of them did not address the topic under discussion, and the others could be read to support homosexual parenting (see Pdog's reviews, no point in me re-iterating them) I'll keep plugging at them another day.

There are 23 gays in New Mexico?

ebeth writes


What 23 homosexual acquaintances? And what have I ever said negative about anybody who happens to be gay much less about gays in general? I sure haven't said anything negative about any gay or lesbian people I know personally.

I've said I believe children benefit from having a loving mother and father in the home and this is the superior arrangement for raising children. I certainly have not suggested it is the only satisfactory arrangement for children. At the request of others I have posted what information I could find on the internet to support that and have requested additional information from others. (I generally only count as credible studies from sources who do not have a dog in the fight.)

So please enlighten me ebeth. Where are these negative things I've said about homosexual acquaintances? I must be getting senile because I sure don't remember them.

You were doing so well in the thread, too.

I, in fact, DID read the studies that I posted for you. This whole thread has re-sparked an area of interest in me that I haven't been messing with since..... well, fall 1999, to be exact.

How can I be so exact? Simply, that is when my second roomate in college moved in with me, a guy named fritz who happened to have two homosexual fathers, and had always grown up that way. He wasn't gay in the slightest, but neither did he seem homophobic. I didn't know at all, in fact, until I went out to dinner with him and his parents and his mom turned out to be a guy.

Does one person make the case for arguing for or against same-sex mairrages? No, of course not. But, for me, my mind was really opened up by the whole situation. I really found it to be quite shocking at first, and kept looking for ways that it must have screwed my roomate up but he seemed pretty damn normal.

After reading the studies (along with several others, which I'd be happy to post for you) I see that, exactly as I said earlier in our discussion, there seems to be some debate over whether or not gays make good parenting couples. Most of this debate is focused on the veracity of the studies, which in many cases point towards gay people raising kids just fine. It is not surprising to me in the slightest that there are those who would doubt the findings of those studies based purely on their own bigotry and fear, though I admit that the book is still out on the subject.

Note that these studies that I linked to specifically studied the problem of homosexuals raising kids, and not just single-parent families, much like the ones you linked to fox.



I benefited from a mom and a dad, and wouldn't have wanted it any other way. But, if I had grown up with two fathers, I'm sure I would say that I wouldn't want to change that, either. I would say that almost NOONE would want to change their history, as an adult, because we become accustomed to the situations that we are in, and it makes us the person that we are. Your statement does not preclude their being a same-sex parenthood, just says that the people who had a regular one are happy with the one they had.

I like discussing this with ya, Foxfyre.... but please don't accuse me of not reading the studies that I linked to, in order to support my own arguments....

Cycloptichorn

So we can assume you have no gay friends?

You may be right, Foxfyre. If you are, I most sincerely apologize.

I'm just have wild bell-ringing going on with this discussion. We've gone over all of this before, and someone (who I believed was you) kept mentioning their 23 self-centred, homosexual acquaintances.

Again, if it wasn't you, I apologize.

I am gathering that there are less than 23 self-centered gay "acquaintances" or "friends" who would answer such a question about their heterosexual parents. I'm afraid my experience in the Hollywood community in the 60's and the Laguna Beach community in the 70's and 80's would not produce a great response about their heterosexual parents. About half of them were divorced.

Apology accepted ebeth.

In this area, I have four close friends/former coworkers who I know to be gay. There may be as many as 19 others among current friends and acquaintances, but the subject rarely comes up so I have no way of knowing. The four I mention I did ask about their upbringing when I was involved in another discussion on this issue some time ago. All were raised in two-parent homes and even though three received some parental resistance when they 'came out', they rate the overall experience as very positive.

I got over any prejudices I may have held when I was director of a YWCA back in the 1970's. We had extensive dance programs including an adult performing dance troupe and almost all the male dancers were gay. They were the most fun bunch of guys anybody could ask for and became exemplary volunteers for the Y. My second-in-command on staff there also acknowledged to me that she was lesbian. We have long lived in different states since but remain in touch.

But I do believe there are inherent differences between male and female and differences between gay and straight and, while these have nothing to do with morals or character or value or in many cases ability, it is foolish to deny that they exist.

They exist from one hetereosexual couple to another. Foolish indeed.

What exactly is 'the homosexual act'? If memory serves me--pardon me if it doesn't--all my heterosexual friends have done everything my homosexual friends have. The only difference seems to be the actual sexes of the participants.

Two people in love ought to be able to marry and raise their family legitimately under the law, with the same benefits as everyone else. All people are free to marry, although the law usually only recognizes male-female unions. The benefits and responsibilities of marriage are designed to aid all of society, not just the couple.

It is the selfish desire to retain inordinate wealth which drives corporations to deny benefits to same sex couples. Religious people who would tell others they cannot marry are simply out of bounds. I fail to see any argument good enough to prove homosexual marriage should not be completely legal and acceptable.

Would any of us be comfortable know what our heterosexual parents do in bed? Answer: NO.

I'm sorry, but I've just got to say Foxfyre, it sounds disingenuous of you to say you've 'gotten over' your prejudices. You haven't convinced me a same-sex couple can't raise a well-adjusted child just as easily as any other. In fact, let me just tell you that my son is marvelous, gets good grades, participates in sports and loves animals. He's been raised by two women and rejected by his father.

How many mass-murderers do you know with gay parents?

All the serial killers I have read anything about came from heterosexual homes. Why, they practically manufacture them.

Welcome to A2K, incidentally.

Welcome Rad.

The burden of proof in this case falls on the those who would seek to limit the rights of a human being.

If you truly believe that all men (and women) are equal under god, and deserve the same rights, then you cannot tell Homosexuals that they cannot marry. To pretend that a civil union is the same thing as a marriage is a ridiculous justification used to support peoples' pre-existing attitudes, which are built on tradition, fear, and religion.

I find it to be rather amusing that those who claim to be the most patriotic, often are the least interested in upholding our basic principles. It reveals their patriotism for the hollow shell it is.

Cycloptichorn

It still comes down to each individual social worker who decides whether someone is worthy of adpoting. I believe they should consider all the criteria and make a decision not based on any prejudiece of race, creed or sexual preference.