Same-sex marriage CXVI...

I believe all heterosexual men and women should be able to marry one another.

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LOL okay. Point well taken. I meant of course that I don't know two heterosexual guys who want to marry each other or two heterosexual gals who want to marry each other. Just to clarify. Smile

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I suppose their are no gay couples who would want their relationship legally sanctioned just for the reason that they love one another.

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(You can't use semantic tricks to obfucate the issue).

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There is absolutely nothing in any of my opinion that suggests that persons entering into a legally sanctioned marriage or a legally sanctioned civil union should not love each other. In fact, from a personal point of view, I would highly recommend that. I have only said that the law does not require or address that.

And to what semantic tricks do you refer LW?

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You're suggesting that a law passed to allow same sex marriage would disallow heterosexuals of the same sex from marrying. That's not necessarily so and, in fact, a plutotonic union only excludes sex and there should be no reason to disallow a marriage license to two heterosexuals even if they divulge they are straight. I don't believe the law will be written that there must be sexual consummation. Otherwise, two heterosexual men could still have sex one time to consumate their union (does give a new meaning to shaking hands).

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(Nor would a such a law mean one can marry their sheep, the sheep not being smart enough to be considering itself as consenting to anything ).

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Um - you can still have a marriage annulled (wiped off the books) for not being consumated. I still don't understand the fervent necessity to call it a marriage. What is wrong with a Civil Union? No one has yet to explain that one well enough. It still would carry all of the same benefits (and penalties requiring a divorce or other legal proceeding to nullify it) as a marriage with out the word marriage.

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Saintsfan is correct. The law allows annullment within a reasonable time frame if a marriage is not consummated and I would presume the same would apply to a civil union. At the same time there is no requirement in the law that a marriage be consummated in order to have legal standing and I would presume the same would apply in an alternate civil union.

For me I generally enjoy sex more than just a handshake; however I settle for a handshake with all but one other particular person.

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And what Saintsfan said: What's wrong with calling it a civil union or some other term? Why is it so important to call it marriage when most people want that to remain one man and one woman?

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What's wrong is this:

Seperate is rarely equal.

Unless you want to go with the earlier idea that McG stated, and make ALL unions civil unions, with the right for the couple to get married in a religious ceremony later on that holds no real legal power, then you are discriminating, plain and simple.

Why are you so challenged by the idea of two gay people getting married? That's the question I have for all you people arguing against it:

Why the hell do you care?

I have a little news flash for you: America is not a Christian nation. Your values are great, for you, but we shouldn't run our nation, and limit people's freedoms, because something makes you uncomfortable.

Cycloptichorn

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.

Fox wrote: "That this would be unsatisfactory or impractical for the gay person is not a matter of law." Oh really. Well, it damn well should be, again, FOR OBVIOUS REASONS.

re: children. Your comments are absurd. Children need love, support, security, etc. from parents. Whether those parents are hetero or homo is (to use a word you throw around rather assuredly) irrelevent. Some straight parents manage to screw things up royally, but no one questions THEIR right to parent. BTW, some single parents do a pretty good job as well.

I am straight, white, and married with children. I am also a passionate extremist when it comes to civil rights. Gay people deserve the right to marry whomever they choose, and thereby receive ALL the state and federal rights granted to any other married couples. They also deserve the right to parent. Period.

That's pretty much how I feel, as an American and as a human being. And given your (Fox's) recent posts re adoption by gay people, I now know how you feel; more to the point, I see no further potential for constructive and/or productive dialogue with you on this matter.

Have a great day, all.

.

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Oh good Angie, because I really hate repeating myself.

There are no credible studies out there that children do as well in alternate families (hetero or gay) as they do with a loving mother and father in the home There are studies showing children have done well with gay parents or other alternate family groups and I don't doubt they have, but these have been so limited in scope they are not useful as statistical evidence. The overwhelming evidence is that children, both gay and straight, do better growing up in a home with a loving mother and father.

I think thoughtful, intelligent people do not rant and rave but enter into discourse to find the best solutions for problems we have and to ensure that public policy, however well intentioned, does not have unintended negative consequences.

If what I have said here makes me homophobic in Angie's (or anybody else's) eyes, so be it.

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ooops. I meant to reply to saintsfan who asked "What is wrong with a Civil Union? No one has yet to explain that one well enough. It still would carry all of the same benefits (and penalties requiring a divorce or other legal proceeding to nullify it) as a marriage with out the word marriage. "

The point is, Brian, that a civil union would NOT bring the same rights as a civil marriage. Under the current system, a civil union would allow for only those rights specified by the state granting the union. And even if the state granted ALL the rights included in its civil marriages, the 1049 federal rights would not be included.

Your premise is a valid one, however. If ALL states passed civil union laws that included ALL rights included with their civil marriages, as well as inter-state recognition of these unions, and if the federal government recognized civil unions as legally equivalent to civil marriage for ALL federal rights, then, sure, call it whatever you want.

But that's a lot od "if's".

.

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The bottom line however is the children. Gays will receive support from most (not all) heterosexuals to achieve the rights they say they want except when it comes to adopting kids.

Most heterosexuals will not agree to same sex people, gay or straight, being on equal footing with a traditional married couple to adopt children. For this primary reason, the two contracts should provide all the necessary protections for all concerned, including the children.

I would strongly oppose any law that forbids single persons, same sex heterosexuals, or gays from adopting children when there is no better option open to the children however. But the best option should be the prevailing one.

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Note to Cyclo: In no place in any of my arguments (or anybody else's in this thread so far as I know) has religion been an issue. In fact the only reference to religion I believe has been to state that it is not an issue.

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Yes, but the morals behind your arguments are based upon traditional religious beliefs, and not by logic.

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Most heterosexuals will not agree to same sex people, gay or straight, being on equal footing with a traditional married couple to adopt children

Why? Why is this? Can you provide me with empircal data that shows that children who grow up in gay families turn out wrong? I suspect it is the same old fear rearing it's ugly head again.

Gay, straight, it doesn't matter. All that matters is that you love your kids and treat them right, look out for their future, etc.... you can bring up the 'bad example for the kids' argument, but look at the millions of crappy and unhappy mairrages around the U.S. I'm sure a bunch of kids who get beat by their fathers and yelled at by their mothers for no reason, every day, would love to have a couple of gay parents who actually treated them with decency, instead.

Cycloptichorn

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I can provide it Cyclop but you can get it yourself by googling it up. I'll try to find the best links later.

Country after country have conducted these studies and every single one comes to the same conclusion. Children of all races, ethnic, and socio/ economic groups do better financially, emotionally, and socially when they are raised in a home by a mother and a father.

Further in societies where strong two-parent families (mother and father) are the norm, there is less poverty, less crime, and a better quality of life by most people's standards.

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Quote:

Further in societies where strong two-parent families (mother and father) are the norm, there is less poverty, less crime, and a better quality of life by most people's standards.

So you're taking it as a given that marital instability begets poverty, and not vice versa? Be careful about conflating cause and effect -- or even separate indicators.

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Boy, you sure were right about the google thing. A little wrong about the conclusions of all the studies, though:

Quote:

Bailey, J.M., Bobrow, D., Wolfe, M., & Mikach, S. (1995). Sexual orientation of adult sons of gay fathers. Developmental Psychology, 31, 124-129.

Reports the result of a study of 55 gay or bisexual men who had a total of 82 sons at least 17 years of age. The fathers were recruited through advertisements in gay publications. Eighty-nine percent of the fathers identified themselves as gay. The rest identified themselves as bisexual. More than 90% of the sons whose sexual orientation could be rated were heterosexual. The sexual orientation of the sons was not positively correlated with the amount of time the sons lived with their fathers. The authors conclude that the available evidence fails to provide empirical grounds for denying child custody to lesbian and gay parents because of concern about the effect on the child's sexual orientation.

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Bigner, J.J., & Jacobsen, R.B. (1992). Adult responses to child behavior and attitudes toward fathering: Gay and nongay fathers. Journal of Homosexuality, 23(3), 99-112.

Provides a concise review of research on gay fathers and reports the results of a study of 24 gay and 29 nongay fathers. Finds a high degree of similarity between the two groups of fathers with regard to parenting styles and attitudes toward fathering. Discusses methodological short-comings, including the lack of standardization of the instruments used and the familiar limitations of convenience sampling that plagues much of gay and lesbian research.

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Hotvedt, M. E., & Mandel, J. B. (1982). Children of lesbian mothers. In W. Paul, J.D. Weinrich, J. Gonsiorek, & M. Hotvedt (Eds.). Homosexuality, social psychological and biological issues (pp. 275-285). Beverly Hills, CA: Sage.

Reviews authors' study of 50 lesbian mothers and 20 heterosexual single mothers, with children ranging in age from 3 to 11 years. Questionnaires, tests, and in-depth interviews were conducted on the children. Using this comparative study format of lesbian and heterosexual single mothers' family units, the data do not support popularly held myths and family court assumptions that children of lesbian parents are prone to "... neglect, unpopularity, confused gender identity, or homosexuality" (p. 284). Stresses the need for divorce lawyers, judges, and child welfare providers to become familiar with the research and begin to change biased perceptions and myths. Presents the need for states to change laws making same sex orientation a felony. Makes no mention in either its literature review or authors' own study about the added complexities surrounding gay and lesbian minority families and the need for further research in this area.

http://www.apa.org/pi/l&gbib.html

And it goes on and on. Here's another good one for ya:
http://www.cga.state.ct.us/2002/olrdata/jud/rpt/2002-R-0879.htm

Quote:

The great majority of studies published in the past 20 years conclude that there are no notable developmental differences between children raised by heterosexual parents and those raised by lesbian and gay parents. Along the same lines, several medical and mental health professional associations, including the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychoanalytic Association, and the American Psychological Association have issued formal statements generally supporting equal access to parenting and adoption for gay men and lesbians.

I think you need to look at some of the more modern studies on this before making your mind up that Gays make bad parents, or that kids who grow up with gay parents turn out any worse than regular ones.

Foxfyre wrote:

Quote:

Further in societies where strong two-parent families (mother and father) are the norm, there is less poverty, less crime, and a better quality of life by most people's standards.

I agree with that whole statement, except the part where you put (man and woman) in. Exclude that, and you are making an argument FOR gay mairrage. Other than the reason that you grew up believing that (man and woman) is the only way, there is no real data to support that addition to your statement. Lots of fear, though.

Cycloptichorn

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Same-sex marriage CXVI...

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