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@MyFellowAtheists: How Big an Atheist Are You?

 
 
argome321
 
  2  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 04:20 pm
@Kolyo,
Quote:
But what if others adopt that same logic? What if they do nothing because they assume that I am going to do something? If we all say "maybe others will be inspired to change it" and pass the buck to them, then no one will do anything.


seems like inductive reasoning. I never assume just because one person will or will not do something that the majority will act the same or act in a certain way. We are individuals and can act independently following our own moral, or immoral, dictates or desires and needs and wants and wishes.
You most do what you must do,be who you are even if you are a minority of one, if that is what you believe.
If you feel there is an injustice to right you don't have to wait to see who else will do it, You can't speak for others nor can they speak for you.
and if you feel you can't or will not do anything that is still up to you. You have to decide yourself how you should live, what consequence you will and can accept.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 04:34 pm
@argome321,
It is precisely because I asked myself this question that I came to this conclusion. You just THINK you know, but actually you don't.
argome321
 
  2  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 04:54 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
It is precisely because I asked myself this question that I came to this conclusion. You just THINK you know, but actually you don't.


if you say so. LOL

But really, why would say such a thing. You don't know me
do you think self knowledge is beyond you?
If anything knowing yourself maybe the only thing you truly know.
If you insist on believing I only think that I know you must have some knowledge of this to make such a claim. What could that be and how did you come to know it, if you know that at all?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 05:02 pm
@argome321,
When I asked you why you are behaving morally, you refused to reply and started treat me aggressively. Hence you are afraid. Of what? Probably that i would easily trounce whatever answer you can summon... That's all.
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 05:12 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
When I asked you why you are behaving morally, you refused to reply and started treat me aggressively. Hence you are afraid. Of what? Probably that i would easily trounce whatever answer you can summon... That's all.


I refused to reply? where have I acted aggressively towards you?
and I didn't realize that we were in a battle otherwise I would have brought my pen because it is mightier than the sword, I thought a discussion was an exchange of ideas. I said I had post my reason for me being moral on my post, If you want me to cut and paste them I will.

But you still owe me an answer about being introspect?
I went back and from another post I wrote this I think some of my reason for being moral is in this post from another post I'll paste it here now

My answer may shock or at least surprise you. I do value life and what ever my sense of morals are they would be the same no matter what era I was born into.
Any abuse on any level is wrong to me. It does not matter to me what era or period of human existence. You can soft peddle it, like the bible, but to me it is still wrong owning another human being. My morality, if you want to label it as morality.

As far as life, I grieve at the lost of life, human and other species, but realistically, I do eat meat, I do kill bacteria, insects and what may bring harm to my life. I can live with the execution of people who with callousness and cold a bloodlessness kill others and who shorten the lives of others. I have resolved that a long time ago because I believe there are those who would continue to take other lives no matter what... for what ever reason(s).

And here is the factor as to why my set of values are innate to me, to my being. I love music and art and the things that make me happy and healthy and bring me comfort and solace, the people that enrich my life, no matter their background. So it would stand to reason that I would have a morality to want to protect them, I would have a rooting interest in their well being. Isn't that what love of self is? Yes love of self. Why would I want to destroy those who enrich my life? Why would I not want to help them succeed? is not also for my benefit? I have empathy and reason and logic to drive what people choose to call morality. And because I hate to see suffering.
My existential understanding that suffering is just another part of life.
So when these people are no longer around I feel a personal loss. If a person with potential is lostIi feel a loss because that person might have enriched my life.

this my reasoning for my morality, and then some.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 05:16 pm
@argome321,
You are very confused. This is only a dispute because you want it so.

If you have reasons to behave morally that you can share, do so. Otherwise don't...
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 05:22 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
You are very confused. This is only a dispute because you want it so.

If you have reasons to behave morally that you can share, do so. Otherwise don't...


then I guess there is no further point in conversation with you
be well
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 05:23 pm
@argome321,
So it's about self-protection and empathy, in short?
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 05:27 pm
@Olivier5,
[quoteSo it's about self-protection and empathy, in short?][/quote]

I would say so, I think all acts are selfish at the core
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 05:46 pm
@argome321,
Ah... At least that's an answer, and a logically coherent one: "morality is but egoism in disguise". In other words, morality is front, a pretense. I personally disagree with that, but it happens to be a logical position for an Atheist.

Have you ever felt remorse? If yes, what do you make of this feeling? Is that also self-serving, and if yes, how?
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 06:21 pm
@Olivier5,
Maybe it's the old catholic natural law..

I've no clue how moral-thinking different groups are (and decided by whom?) because saying and doing are different, even how that eventually computes with the lives people lead, given unbounded hypocrisy, or bound - I bet a lot of hypocrisy is people getting stuck and flailing.

I only know the people I know, have known. At least partly by the presence of religion all over the place, people who opt out are either thinkers who are argumentative pests, like most of us here, or raised in harrowing situations with forays into bad things, like murder, or, not interested, just trying to pay the rent.
0 Replies
 
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 06:23 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Ah... At least that's an answer, and a logically coherent one: "morality is but egoism in disguise". In other words, morality is front, a pretense. I personally disagree with that, but it happens to be a logical position for an Atheist.

Have you ever felt remorse? If yes, what do you make of this feeling? Is that also self-serving, and if yes, how?
[/b]

Feeling serve different purpose,s which I will get to another time,
for time sake
Yes I have felt remorse, regret and just about every emotion that a human can feel. I think morality is first and foremost a human construct, setting rules that as a social animal we need to hold a society together, I would say that it's the glue because with ou it any a given society would fall apart benefiting no one.

The problem is that we are also individual well aware of our egos for good or bad making it almost impossible to codify behavior.

If I didn't feel empathy towards others would I care as much? Personally I don't know, I can understand it on a logical and intellectual level and could act accordingly because logic would tell me that it would be beneficial for me to act in accordance to some morality, for my own survival.

Do you know anything about sociopaths and psychopaths? to this I will discuss later If you don't hear from me tonight it is because I have to go, but if you want to continue this discussion I would be more than willing tomorrow to tackle it

Also I wish you explain why you feel why I believe as an atheist it is a logical position for an atheist? Do you know that atheist argue among other atheist about morality because it is very different to them.


ossobuco
 
  3  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 06:24 pm
@argome321,
That's not quite true - some atheists here on a2k are "hard", as in they believe there are no gods. Some of the rest of us put no energy into belief; the lastest thing is to call us soft or weak atheists.
This has been argues a million times here, which is new to you, a newbie.
Welcome, by the way.

In case it's not clear, if you click on the little green letters above my post, that is what I am responding to.
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 06:42 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
That's not quite true - some atheists here on a2k are "hard", as in they believe there are no gods. Some of the rest of us put no energy into belief.
This has been argues a million times here, which is new to you, a newbie.
Welcome, by the way.


Thank you for your welcome

What is not Quite true? My I ask what particular point you are referring to?
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 06:47 pm
@argome321,
That's what I was saying -

when you reply to a poster, what the poster had said is shown if you click on the small name above.

When you reply to all (bottom of the page) you are not directing your comment to a specific poster.

See if you can wind your way back, by clicking that little (green? grey?) thing above our posts..
argome321
 
  2  
Reply Tue 17 Feb, 2015 07:23 pm
@ossobuco,
Got you
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2015 06:10 am
@argome321,
Quote:
If I didn't feel empathy towards others would I care as much? Personally I don't know, I can understand it on a logical and intellectual level and could act accordingly because logic would tell me that it would be beneficial for me to act in accordance to some morality, for my own survival.

Do you know anything about sociopaths and psychopaths? to this I will discuss later If you don't hear from me tonight it is because I have to go, but if you want to continue this discussion I would be more than willing tomorrow to tackle it

Also I wish you explain why you feel why I believe as an atheist it is a logical position for an atheist? Do you know that atheist argue among other atheist about morality because it is very different to them.

I know all this. For a theist, morals pose no anchoring problem: the god(s) wants us to behave, and will punish us if we don't. Simple. No such thing in an Atheist world view (whatever the world view of an atheist, there's no gods in it).

Without empathy, we would all be sociopaths. Reason alone cannot found morals. Reason alone will tell you things like: society is based on competition, theft and deception; thieves abound at the top of the heap; stealing and cheating are the rules of the game....etc. So let's get goid at this social game of stealing and cheating.

There is no rational, selfish reason to give some money to a beggar.

IMO the key to this question lies in understanding empathy.
argome321
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2015 07:10 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
There is no rational, selfish reason to give some money to a beggar.


there are many psychopaths who happen to be atheist ( I know some),who don't commit crimes because they know they don't want to be imprisoned. That has nothing to do with empathy. That's pure reasoning.

and for people who do have empathy their rational reason for sharing the wealth, sort of speak, is because if they can ease another pain , regardless if it is true or not, it eases their own pain they feel through their empathy. So in essence their reasons are selfish. If I see a person suffering and it bothers me I might help that person just to ease my own pain, to save myself some
unpleasantness. It's that simple

P.S. Here is something I find interesting, you, your actions, your behavior is based on not wanting to be punish by your god and you want the reward of heaven in and after life then aren't you responding and acting in a logical manner much like an Atheists, meaning you too care about your survival and how you survive, this is your motivation. The difference between you and I is that the Atheist motivation is internal where as the believer is external. But you do use reason and logic. And it that internal motivation that dictates that I take sole responsibility for my actions.

Talk to you later, I Have errands to run this morning.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2015 08:23 am
@argome321,
Quote:
there are many psychopaths who happen to be atheist ( I know some),who don't commit crimes because they know they don't want to be imprisoned. That has nothing to do with empathy. That's pure reasoning.

The fear of the cop is a great civilizer, but what happens when law crumbles? When there are riots or civil disorder, and the cops can't do anything? Who keeps the cops in line, too?

There ARE cases where you can easily steal, or even kill, and get away with it.

Quote:
for people who do have empathy their rational reason for sharing the wealth, sort of speak, is because if they can ease another pain , regardless if it is true or not, it eases their own pain they feel through their empathy.

I agree that it all rests on empathy. Reason can then buttress things a bit but as usual, reason can go either way. It can justify anything. Even eating little babies alive would I suppose be perfectly okay in some intellectual construct or another. It's only at the emotional level that we cringe at the thought...

Quote:
Here is something I find interesting, you, your actions, your behavior is based on not wanting to be punish by your god and you want the reward of heaven in and after life then aren't you responding and acting in a logical manner much like an Atheists, meaning you too care about your survival and how you survive, this is your motivation. The difference between you and I is that the Atheist motivation is internal where as the believer is external.

1) I am an atheist too, so don't assume too much...

2) Yes, of course, heaven and hell are ways to make believe people that it is in their interest to behave. Just like parents tell the Father Christmas myth to their kids for the same reason: "If you don't behave, Santa won't bring you presents." So they help enforce some morality. At least that's the idea.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2015 09:21 am
As has been pointed out...even empathy can be self-serving...and I dare to guess that it mostly is.

The work done by people like Mother Theresa, Albert Schweitzer, Father Damien, Harriet Tubman and their like served their purposes as much as it served the needs and wants of the people they served.

I respectfully suggest for consideration: Almost everything we do is in the interest of self...and perhaps we can dispense with that "almost."

And "empathy" does not seem to be exclusive to theists. I am not a theist...but I have empathy; I know many atheists who are empathetic to the core.
0 Replies
 
 

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