George Bush

blatham wrote:

You are getting me mixed up with some other handsome devil. I made no comment here regarding oil. I could, but that wasn't me.

Yes I am. My apologies.

blatham wrote:

But as regards how a decline in international regard might harm US interests...that seems really quite obvious. Compare, for instance, the support and cooperation (including financial) the US received during the first gulf war to what it has received in Iraq. Future coalition building, with this administration, will be far more difficult and unfruitful because of the way this administration has proceded. It would be impossible to measure what consequences will follow from disregard of international treaties and laws, but to assume none seems foolish in the extreme.

I don't necessarily disagree with you on this point, but the contention I questioned was that a loss of international esteem has hurt our efforts in the War on Terrorism (ex-Iraq).

blatham wrote:

This is confused because of the earlier mis-attribution. I would guess that financial interest informs all parties, to some degree. For example, I think it rather certain that the campaign to find 'coalition partners' involved monetary (or effectively monetary) rewards. All western nations depend upon oil, so no one is off the hook there. But one ought to note the predominance of oil interests in this particular administration, that's not irrelevant. However, the US would almost certainly NOT have begun this Iraq project were it not for the neoconservative people on board, so that's a factor unique to America.

Clearly, oil is relevant to the situation in Iraq, but for many more reasons that the possibility that some members of the Bush administration stand to, personally, gain from the advancement of Oil Industry interests. In the absence of oil, the world might be a very different place, but there is no question that the status of the Middle East in terms of world and American affairs would be extremely different (unless of course dates or camel dung proved to be an efficient fuel alternative to oil).

If by "neoconservative" you mean of the opinion that establishing a beachfront of democracy in Iraq to combat radical Islamists is strategically sound, I don't know that I agree with it being a factor unique to America. Tony Blair seems to have heavily bought in on the notion.

blatham wrote:

I have not seen polls from Israel, and there are obvious reasons why polls there might show significantly different outcomes than polls elsewhere. But I have seen polls from European countries, from Britain, from Canada, from Australia, and they all reflect very high levels of disapproval for Bush and for Bush policies regarding Iraq (and unilateralism). This data isn't hard to find.

But you will agree, won't you, that even if all of the polls you cite exist (and I don't argue that they do not) this doesn't lead to your conclusion that there are no polls in any other country (save perhaps Israel) that do not reflect opposition to Bush and his policies? Some European countries, Canada and Australia do not the whole world make.

Quote:

In any case, there is at least one country that is not part of this alleged wave of disapproval, and that is The United States of America. I know this is likely to seem jingoistic of me, but in matters of the US administration and its policies, I find US polls of more importance that those in other countries - even Israel.

blatham wrote:

"Important" in the sense of American elections only.

No, in matters of the US administration and its policies. For reasons of elections or not, the approval or disapproval of Americans for the American administration and its policies has a far greater bearing on the power of the administration and the continuance of its policies than all of the international polls put together.

blatham wrote:

Polls never tell us what is 'true', just what people believe. But what people believe can be very important, and the US can't go it alone. So there's the real or pragmatic issue as regards everybody else having come to despise this administration and its policies. But there's also the issue here of arrogance and pridefulness. It is not an axiom that when most everybody else disagrees, you therefore have even more evidence that you are correct. Unless, of course, one is very prideful and arrogant, in which case that axiom might well be functioning.

Nor is it axiomatic that when everyone disagrees with you, you must be wrong.

There are pragmatic issues involved with having the rest of the world despise our President (see my reply to McGentrix), but they need not be critical. Arrogance and pridefulness as an issue is really quite a minor one, or at least it should be. Again, it can sometimes get in the way of smoothly executing policy and it, most definitely, is the real reason for much of the world's disdain for Bush, but if the policies are sound, it really is sort of petty to get caught up in personalities.

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McGentrix:
1. You are completely entitled to your opinion, but you are also quite offending rest of the World with thoughts like "so, if media says...". Not everyone is fool that just read papers and gets opinions from it - once again, I will not go deeper into political conversations, but my opinion about Bush has absolutely nothing to do with what media says.

2. I am the one that said "because he minds his own business" but rest of your post about Kim is completely pointless, because my opinion about him is perfectly clear from the rest of my post, so there is no need for mentioning his atrocities (difference is that rest of the World and half of USA thinks that Buhs is pretty close in atrocities only that he is not doing that to his own people and is also using more sophisticated methods for killing children - but I doubt parents of kids killed on wedding are happier then parents of kids died of hunger in North Korea). I also put it quite clearly that there is no doubt who is worst in my opinion, but it's also fact that "dumb world" and "dumb half of USA" think very very low about Bush

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Finn - "some" european countries? There is not a single country in Europe that supports Bush - of course we are here talking about people, not about governments - Polish government for example, supports war in Iraq, but huge majority of Poles is against it (as well as it was with Spain).
Believe me - ALL european countries strongly oppose war in Iraq (while most of them were strongly supporting war in Afghanistan - think about that for a while).

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Not only does Bush have little support in Europe, he is rapidly losing support in the US.

Ex-Diplomats, Military Leaders Oppose Bush

WASHINGTON (AP) - Angered by Bush administration policies they contend endanger national security, 26 retired U.S. diplomats and military officers are urging Americans to vote President Bush out of office in November.

The group, which calls itself Diplomats and Military Commanders for Change, does not explicitly endorse Democrat John Kerry for president in its campaign, which will start officially Wednesday at a Washington news conference.

Among the group are 20 ambassadors, appointed by both Democratic and Republican presidents, other former State Department officials and military leaders whose careers span three decades.
Prominent members include retired Marine Gen. Joseph P. Hoar, commander of U.S. forces in the Middle East during the administration of Bush's father; retired Adm. William J. Crowe Jr., ambassador to Britain under President Clinton and chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff under President Reagan; and Jack F. Matlock Jr., a member of the National Security Council under Reagan and ambassador to the Soviet Union from 1987 to 1991.

Link to CNN

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The dreaded 26 report... Rolling Eyes

If not for the Internet ( a media outlet), 24 hour news media, printed news media, people would not know as much about Bush and the US as the do, correct?

Because of this immediate access to news and the inability to be able to make a decision without being told what their opinion is, the liberals around the world make repeatedly bad decisions about things like the popularity of George Bush. It is a pity, but these liberals then decide they need to share their misguided opinions with other misguided liberals and before you know it, they are mouthing off to their local media who decide it is news. Then, joe citizen in whatever country reads the paper and says "oh, look dear, Bush is a bad guy now." They say this with ZERO idea about what Bush is about or what he has done.

It's enough to make one puke.

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Sounds like your whistling past the graveyard to me.

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Finn writes:

Quote:

Bush is despised because he is very clearly seen as sticking the American nose in the business of other peoples of the world.

The thing that is so maddening about this to those of us with a sense of history is that the same people accusing Bush of 'sticking the American nose in the business of other peoples of the world' are those who expect and demand the most of America, who presume to tell us how we should run our business, and who covet and solicit American loans, contracts, trade, and tourist business. One might think France, Belgium, etc. would be grateful that we Americans were such busybodies; otherwise their destinies might have been quite different and not in a good way.

I think the perception of many Americans is that we are overly generous and benevolent to all other nations and that we are foolish to continue that policy while we seem to be everybody's whipping boy.

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McGentrix wrote:

The dreaded 26 report...

If not for the Internet ( a media outlet), 24 hour news media, printed news media, people would not know as much about Bush and the US as the do, correct?

Because of this immediate access to news and the inability to be able to make a decision without being told what their opinion is, the liberals around the world make repeatedly bad decisions about things like the popularity of George Bush. It is a pity, but these liberals then decide they need to share their misguided opinions with other misguided liberals and before you know it, they are mouthing off to their local media who decide it is news. Then, joe citizen in whatever country reads the paper and says "oh, look dear, Bush is a bad guy now." They say this with ZERO idea about what Bush is about or what he has done.

It's enough to make one puke.

have a pretzel and a beer to go with that puke...........

the fact that Joe citizen can easily see bushinc and it's accomplishments are the exact reason they think he's a bad guy. That's not to say he's the only one. There are plenty of bad guys leading various parts of the world. That doesn't mean that bushinc is excused or excluded.

At the very least I would like to have a leader with enough brains to prop up and continue the facade of the Good Old USA in the world rather than a pack of transparent arrogant egomaniac bumblers at the helm.

I am also thankful that with all our problems we can still express our feelings and vote the bums out (maybe) but I fear that time too is drawing to a close courtesy of bushinc.

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Foxy
Stop beating a dead horse. The US has developed a rash named G.Bush. Hopefully the American electorate will effect a cure in the next election.

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foxfyre said

Quote:

I think the perception of many Americans is that we are overly generous and benevolent to all other nations and that we are foolish to continue that policy while we seem to be everybody's whipping boy.

American genius shows itself in many sphere, the arts being one of them. Let me quote from Randy Newman, genius composer and lyricist.

Quote:

Political Science

No one likes us
I don't know why.
We may not be perfect
But heaven knows we try.
But all around even our old friends put us down.
Let's drop the big one and see what happens.

We give them money
But are they grateful?
No they're spiteful
And they're hateful.
They don't respect us so let's surprise them;
We'll drop the big one and pulverize them.

Now Asia's crowded
And Europe's too old.
Africa's far too hot,
And Canada's too cold.
And South America stole our name.
Let's drop the big one; there'll be no one left to blame us.

Bridge:
We'll save Australia;
Don't wanna hurt no kangaroo.
We'll build an all-American amusement park there;
They've got surfing, too.

Well, boom goes London,
And boom Paris.
More room for you
And more room for me.
And every city the whole world round
Will just be another American town.
Oh, how peaceful it'll be;
We'll set everybody free;
You'll have Japanese kimonos, baby,
There'll be Italian shoes for me.
They all hate us anyhow,
So let's drop the big one now.
Let's drop the big one now.

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McGentrix wrote:

The dreaded 26 report...

If not for the Internet ( a media outlet), 24 hour news media, printed news media, people would not know as much about Bush and the US as the do, correct?

Because of this immediate access to news and the inability to be able to make a decision without being told what their opinion is, the liberals around the world make repeatedly bad decisions about things like the popularity of George Bush. It is a pity, but these liberals then decide they need to share their misguided opinions with other misguided liberals and before you know it, they are mouthing off to their local media who decide it is news. Then, joe citizen in whatever country reads the paper and says "oh, look dear, Bush is a bad guy now." They say this with ZERO idea about what Bush is about or what he has done.

It's enough to make one puke.

McG

Some months ago, I read a piece by an American writer who had been travelling and through Europe. He related that no matter which country he was in, the people he talked to were quite familiar with the American neoconservative movement and what its philosophies are. You can see that here too. People like walter and nimh and thomas and others are well educated on what's going on in America. They read widely and aren't victims of some worldwide leftie newspaper cabal. They aren't even all liberals.

Notions concerning this administration's policies (and Bush too) originating from out of the US are based on something other than knee-jerk anti-Americanism or anti-Bush fervor. As with those 26 former US officials, their opinion arises out of real disagreements with policies and political ideas, and what is perceived will be the likely consequences of those policies and ideas.

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Blatham, I would also propose that the population of A2K is in NO WAY indicative of the general population of anywhere.

Or, are you suggesting that the average citizen of the world is somehow smarter than the average citizen of America? are you also going to suggest that the people dancing in the streets of Iraq every time a bomb goes off are also educated in the American neoconservative movement? That the people setting those explosives off are educated in what philosophy Bush has towards the world?

How wonderfully grandiose of you to speak so highly of everyone else in the world while at the same time putting us Americans in our place... Rolling Eyes

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MyOwnUsername wrote:

Finn - "some" european countries? There is not a single country in Europe that supports Bush - of course we are here talking about people, not about governments - Polish government for example, supports war in Iraq, but huge majority of Poles is against it (as well as it was with Spain).
Believe me - ALL european countries strongly oppose war in Iraq (while most of them were strongly supporting war in Afghanistan - think about that for a while).

MOU

I was merely repeating what blatham wrote, although I don't know why I should believe you that ALL european countries (And by this I assume you mean the population majorities of all European countries) strongly oppose the war in Iraq.

In any case, it should be clear, by now, that I, for one, am not all that terribly concerned about international opinion, any more than I think they are concerned about American opinion.

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"Political Science"

One of my favorite songs.

It's great how one can enjoy Newman's songs on so many levels.

This one in particular can be enjoyed as a musical version of the "Nuke The Whales" bumper sticker.

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Quote:

In any case, it should be clear, by now, that I, for one, am not all that terribly concerned about international opinion, any more than I think they are concerned about American opinion.

See, that's a problem. There are many benefits to having a good international reputation, and a lot of downsides to having a bad one, especially in the war on terror. The support of other countries, both financially and morale-wise, is going to be essential to winning that war - it's no good trying to track down terrorists if other countries just harbor them (or fail to help us prosecute countries which do).

Pissing off your neighbors is a bad way to live in a neighborhood. Unless, of course, you consider yourself to be above them, which is the tone I get from your piece, Finn. Don't be that guy.

Cycloptichorn

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Yeah Finn, be that other guy that grovels at the feet of your neighbors, more concerned with their well being than your own. Be that guy that always does what's best for everyone else instead of yourself so that when they walk all over you it's ok. Be that guy who takescrap from everyone, regardless of what they say about your mom. Don't worry, it makes them feel better to degrade you, as you have become THAT guy.

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Foxfyre wrote:

Finn writes:

Quote:
Bush is despised because he is very clearly seen as sticking the American nose in the business of other peoples of the world.

The thing that is so maddening about this to those of us with a sense of history is that the same people accusing Bush of 'sticking the American nose in the business of other peoples of the world' are those who expect and demand the most of America, who presume to tell us how we should run our business, and who covet and solicit American loans, contracts, trade, and tourist business. One might think France, Belgium, etc. would be grateful that we Americans were such busybodies; otherwise their destinies might have been quite different and not in a good way.

I think the perception of many Americans is that we are overly generous and benevolent to all other nations and that we are foolish to continue that policy while we seem to be everybody's whipping boy.

I don't know that we are overly generous, or that we are a whipping boy to anyone.

Generosity tends to be tainted if there are expectations of a return on the investment. There's nothing wrong with expecting a return on investments, but "generous" is not an appropriate term to use in describing an investor.

Lions aren't the whipping boys of hyenas and jackals.

I can understand how Americans might feel quite angry with the short memories of Europeans - especially considering that a fair number of those who lived through and participated in the struggles of 60 years ago, remain alive today.

Here again though, our soldiers made their sacrifices for a much greater goal than to secure the everlasting, uncritical regard of Europeans.

Europeans should not be expected to be uncritical of the US because we pulled their bacon out of a fire of their own creation, but it would reflect a lot more positively on them if they could contain their criticism within the respectful boundaries one expects of friends, and allies.

Unfortunately, the fact that we did pull their bacon out of the fires of WWI and WWII and kept it from falling into the fire of the Cold War wears heavily on their proud heritage and fuels much of their shrill criticism. It is extremely ironic, therefore, that they should criticize us the most loudly for our pride and arrogance.

This doesn't explain the disdain of Canadian, Australian or American liberals, but no time for that at the moment.

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Quote:

Yeah Finn, be that other guy that grovels at the feet of your neighbors, more concerned with their well being than your own. Be that guy that always does what's best for everyone else instead of yourself so that when they walk all over you it's ok. Be that guy who takescrap from everyone, regardless of what they say about your mom. Don't worry, it makes them feel better to degrade you, as you have become THAT guy.

How about being the guy who helps his neighbors out? That goes out of his way to make the community a better place for everyone, even if it means that his house isn't as nice as it might be if he spent all his time working on it?

You can be a good member of society and not be a pussy, McG.

Cycloptichorn

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So explain to me what the neighbors are doing to help us? It seems like a mostly one-way street most of the time with us living at the wrong end...

The neighbors borrow our tools all the time, borrow money from us without paying back, criticize us all the time, when we ask for some help cleaning up the sand box they all say no, they don't share their toys very freely, and they hardly ever buy our lemonade. So explain why it is, exactly, we need to be nice to the rude neighbors...

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Because we set the example, remember? You cannot claim moral superiority without acting BETTER than others do.

When our neighbors thought we truly needed help, they did - we had tons of international support after 9/11, when some really bad people blew the crap out of part of our house and scared everybody in the neighborhood to death.

But when we decided to use that bad event as an excuse to kick the crap out of some other neighbors, who didn't have anything to do with the guys who blew us up except for the fact that they lived on the same street, they didn't agree, and so didn't help us. Understand?

Cycloptichorn

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