1
   

George Bush

 
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Jun, 2004 09:52 pm
fairandbalanced wrote:
Acquiunk wrote,
Quote:
International opinion used to be our most potent weapon until Bush and his neocon allies decided to trash it.


True. The international opinion after September 11 was very supportive. Governments were very helpful stopping the flow of money to Al Qaida. The US got full cooperation from European nations including France and Germany.
There was a multinational force sent to Afghanistan including France, Spain, and Germany.

Today, that is just a fading memory. Crying or Very sad


As mysteryman pointed out, a multinational force was sent to Iraq as well (Spain included until al-Qaida determined its elections).

How was international opinion ever a potent weapon of ours?

Please cite example of countries no longer cooperating with us in the War on Terrorism -outside of Iraq. France and Germany, in particular, go out of their way in contending that they remain with us in the fight against al-Qaida - outside Iraq. Are they lying?
0 Replies
 
Mr Stillwater
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2004 03:02 am
Finn - Iraq is still represents a third of the world's oil up for grabs. They're in......



if it means cheap fuel.
0 Replies
 
MyOwnUsername
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2004 04:31 am
I doubt there is world leader despised as much as Bush is. I will not go into political arguments, just answering pure question and truth is that World is pretty much united in hating and despising him (and it would be really great if his fans /without talking about general political opinions - I mean, there are other Republicans as far as I know/ think about it for a while).

He is not worst leader on planet - e.g. North Korean leader is surely worse, but even he is not that despised, simply because he minds his own business. He still suck so much, he is dictator and, well, he is Hitler for his own nation. And that probably keeps attention of people worldwide much more on Bush.

As for other strong "allies" they are either coming from internationally irelevant countries, so people don't mind too much - actually even Spain is not that relevant in general terms, so Aznar was considered Bush's puppet, and since opposition to agression on Iraq was much much stronger (or at least much much better covered throughout the world) in UK then in USA, and opinion about nation is also part of the story (and opinion of world about Americans is much worse then about British) that probably left Blair bit in a shadow.

Note: I am talking generally, my opinion about Americans is not worse then about British simply because I do not have negative opinions about any nations but rather about individuals that can be of any nation.
0 Replies
 
GeneralTsao
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2004 09:48 am
If you listened to the press in the 1980s, you'd discover that Ronald Reagan was the most unpopular US President of all time, and that he was going to cause WWIII; a nuclear war which would end human inhabitation of the earth.

Now, as this past week has proved, Reagan was a much-loved, respected, wise, and powerful leader.

All successful people take a lot of flak. "Everyone" hates the founder of MicroSoft, yet most people's lives have been positively impacted by SomethingMicroSoft. People also hated Henry Ford, ridiculed Columbus, and despised Jesus.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2004 09:50 am
Ronald Reagan is now Jesus?
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2004 09:54 am
But thank goodness he will not rise again.
0 Replies
 
BoGoWo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2004 10:00 am
can' decide, is that 'overthetopish', or 'offa the topic'?
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2004 10:07 am
It can go to extremes in either direction. Radicalism is a product for fools and charlatans. The comparisons also go to the extreme of calling a President "Hitler" but that doesn't make it true. They're somewhere between the two and Reagan was an effective President no matter the flaws. Is there such a thing as a flawless human being? No, and worshiping a human being is the ultimate folly practiced by too many.
0 Replies
 
kev
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2004 10:43 am
Re: George Bush
au1929 wrote:
Has there ever, in recent times, been a more internationally despised national leader than George Bush? What is your opinion?


Margaret Thatcher, the lowest piece of dog **** in world history.
0 Replies
 
GeneralTsao
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2004 11:33 am
Lightwizard wrote:
Ronald Reagan is now Jesus?


That is a flying leap, Lightwizard, and not at all what I wrote, and you know better than to apply flawed logic in order to spin my words.

If I were smarter, I'd give you the name of the logical fallacy you applied.

General Tsao
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2004 12:05 pm
Mr Stillwater wrote:
Finn - Iraq is still represents a third of the world's oil up for grabs. They're in......



if it means cheap fuel.


That may be, but the contention is that we have somehow suffered in the War on Terror because of the low international opinion of George Bush.

Does it really matter if it is their avarice that overrides their frivolous disdain?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2004 12:18 pm
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Mr Stillwater wrote:
Finn - Iraq is still represents a third of the world's oil up for grabs. They're in......



if it means cheap fuel.


That may be, but the contention is that we have somehow suffered in the War on Terror because of the low international opinion of George Bush.

Does it really matter if it is their avarice that overrides their frivolous disdain?


Avarice doesn't come anywhere near making the grade for a coherent explanation of what is effectively world-wide disdain for Bush's administration. It is the strawman thrown up against France/Germany, but even if that argument had merit (they are more beset by greed than the US?) it wouldn't have any bearing on what the populations of those two nations think of the Bush administration.

There is no country, with the possible exception of Israel, where polls show approval for the Bush team and its policies. None. And nothing like this was the case when the Clinton administration was in power.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2004 01:02 pm
Not a flying leap at all -- if you offer a comparison it's suppose to be an equal comparison. You offered flawed logic so if you believe it was answered with flawed logic, then a stupid question deserves a stupid answer.
0 Replies
 
AmericanEagleJRL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2004 05:35 pm
JustanObserver wrote:
Kim comes close, but in coming to the level of international anger/resentment/etc of Bush, I can't think of anyone (in recent times)
I echo your sentiment.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2004 07:57 pm
So, because the media makes Bush out to be a bad guy, he is the most despised leader in the world? I had no idea so many people around the world were such simpletons that they would believe what they read in the newspaper.

Bush is not even close to any of the other people that have been listed in this thread. Someone mentioned Kim Jung Il is not as unpopular because he "minds his own business"... that and the fact that he tortures and kills everyone who disagrees with him as well as their families and pets and the friends pets.

You guys had better watch it, your partisanship is showing.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2004 08:15 pm
Quote:
You guys had better watch it, your partisanship is showing.
interesting but I think your irony is showing
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2004 09:18 pm
McGentrix wrote:
So, because the media makes Bush out to be a bad guy, he is the most despised leader in the world? I had no idea so many people around the world were such simpletons that they would believe what they read in the newspaper.

Bush is not even close to any of the other people that have been listed in this thread. Someone mentioned Kim Jung Il is not as unpopular because he "minds his own business"... that and the fact that he tortures and kills everyone who disagrees with him as well as their families and pets and the friends pets.

You guys had better watch it, your partisanship is showing.


Let the clarifying waters pour forth.

1) comparing Kim and Bush in anything other than oddness of hairstyle is downright foolish, or worse.
2) the notion that Bush is despised by the majority of citizens in the western world merely because newspapers everywhere in the western world suggest those citizens ought to despise him is as foolish, or worse, as the claim in 1)
3) it becomes something of a logical puzzle as to why those 'simpletons' described in 1) wouldn't be quite at home with the simpleton(s) described in 2), all being readers, of course.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2004 09:39 pm
blatham wrote:
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
Mr Stillwater wrote:
Finn - Iraq is still represents a third of the world's oil up for grabs. They're in......



if it means cheap fuel.


That may be, but the contention is that we have somehow suffered in the War on Terror because of the low international opinion of George Bush.

Does it really matter if it is their avarice that overrides their frivolous disdain?


Avarice doesn't come anywhere near making the grade for a coherent explanation of what is effectively world-wide disdain for Bush's administration. It is the strawman (I seem to recall you lecturing someone on the use of "strawman" --- professori, teach thyself) thrown up against France/Germany, but even if that argument had merit (they are more beset by greed than the US?) it wouldn't have any bearing on what the populations of those two nations think of the Bush administration.


Wait a minute blatham. It was you that suggested that they are in it because of cheap fuel. You are so desperate to wave the banner of international disdain for Bush that you are not bothering to read what you have written, let alone what I have.

The argument was made that loss of international regard has hurt our efforts in the War on Terrorism. I've asked for evidence of this contention and have received none. You chimed in with the comment on cheap fuel, which may or may not have been attended to address the issue.

It would appear that your comment was intended to refer to our Coalition partners in Iraq rather than our partners in the ex-Iraq War on Terror.

Are you actually suggesting that you buy into the perfectly ridiculous notion that all Coalition members are simply chasing cheap fuel, while such stalwarts of Peace as France and Germany opposed the war out of principle and without any regard for their economic status? One might forgive such childlike innocence if it were focused on your homeland alone, but France and Germany? Please.

blatham wrote:
There is no country, with the possible exception of Israel, where polls show approval for the Bush team and its policies. None. And nothing like this was the case when the Clinton administration was in power.


Since you're not certain that Israel is not in step with the contended absolute disdain of the rest of the world, it is hard to accept the otherwise absolute nature of your assertion.

In any case, there is at least one country that is not part of this alleged wave of disapproval, and that is The United States of America. I know this is likely to seem jingoistic of me, but in matters of the US administration and its policies, I find US polls of more importance that those in other countries - even Israel.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2004 10:46 pm
You are getting me mixed up with some other handsome devil. I made no comment here regarding oil. I could, but that wasn't me.

Quote:
The argument was made that loss of international regard has hurt our efforts in the War on Terrorism. I've asked for evidence of this contention and have received none. You chimed in with the comment on cheap fuel, which may or may not have been attended to address the issue.


But as regards how a decline in international regard might harm US interests...that seems really quite obvious. Compare, for instance, the support and cooperation (including financial) the US received during the first gulf war to what it has received in Iraq. Future coalition building, with this administration, will be far more difficult and unfruitful because of the way this administration has proceded. It would be impossible to measure what consequences will follow from disregard of international treaties and laws, but to assume none seems foolish in the extreme.

Quote:
Are you actually suggesting that you buy into the perfectly ridiculous notion that all Coalition members are simply chasing cheap fuel, while such stalwarts of Peace as France and Germany opposed the war out of principle and without any regard for their economic status? One might forgive such childlike innocence if it were focused on your homeland alone, but France and Germany? Please.

This is confused because of the earlier mis-attribution. I would guess that financial interest informs all parties, to some degree. For example, I think it rather certain that the campaign to find 'coalition partners' involved monetary (or effectively monetary) rewards. All western nations depend upon oil, so no one is off the hook there. But one ought to note the predominance of oil interests in this particular administration, that's not irrelevant. However, the US would almost certainly NOT have begun this Iraq project were it not for the neoconservative people on board, so that's a factor unique to America.

Quote:
Since you're not certain that Israel is not in step with the contended absolute disdain of the rest of the world, it is hard to accept the otherwise absolute nature of your assertion.

I have not seen polls from Israel, and there are obvious reasons why polls there might show significantly different outcomes than polls elsewhere. But I have seen polls from European countries, from Britain, from Canada, from Australia, and they all reflect very high levels of disapproval for Bush and for Bush policies regarding Iraq (and unilateralism). This data isn't hard to find.

Quote:
In any case, there is at least one country that is not part of this alleged wave of disapproval, and that is The United States of America. I know this is likely to seem jingoistic of me, but in matters of the US administration and its policies, I find US polls of more importance that those in other countries - even Israel.


"Important" in the sense of American elections only. Polls never tell us what is 'true', just what people believe. But what people believe can be very important, and the US can't go it alone. So there's the real or pragmatic issue as regards everybody else having come to despise this administration and its policies. But there's also the issue here of arrogance and pridefulness. It is not an axiom that when most everybody else disagrees, you therefore have even more evidence that you are correct. Unless, of course, one is very prideful and arrogant, in which case that axiom might well be functioning.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2004 11:03 pm
McGentrix wrote:
So, because the media makes Bush out to be a bad guy, he is the most despised leader in the world? I had no idea so many people around the world were such simpletons that they would believe what they read in the newspaper.

Bush is not even close to any of the other people that have been listed in this thread. Someone mentioned Kim Jung Il is not as unpopular because he "minds his own business"... that and the fact that he tortures and kills everyone who disagrees with him as well as their families and pets and the friends pets.

You guys had better watch it, your partisanship is showing.


I think it's incredibly naive or delusional to suggest that everyone around the world who despises Bush does so because he or she has made a careful analysis of the issues and rendered a judgment against the US president based on both intellectual and visceral conclusions. Undoubtedly there are many millions of people who form their opinions about America and its political leadership based on newspaper headlines, TV News soundbytes, and the expressed opinions of film and music stars.

However, the Media can't be blamed for all negative opinion of Bush.

Actually, the person who explained the reason for Kim Jung Il's relative lack of unpopularity is (sad to say) on the mark.

Bush is despised because he is very clearly seen as sticking the American nose in the business of other peoples of the world.

With some exceptions that I will enumerate later, as long as a regime confines its activities within its borders, it can remain comfortably outside the critical regard of the rest of the world.

In accordance with this rule, Saddam Hussein could continue to torture and slaughter hundreds of thousands of his citizens and be less despised than George Bush who ordered the invasion of Iraq to overthrow Saddam.

Apparently, international opinion accepts the starvation of millions of North Koreans as the business of Kim Jung Il, and so long as he minds it and not someone else's business, he gets a few tsk tsks, but no million person protest rallys in London and Madrid.

As previously mentioned, there are some exceptions (and exceptions to exceptions) to the general rule.

1) If a regime is seen to oppress members of a different race or nationality, even if it is contained within its borders, international opinion will be reflected as disdain: e.g. South Africa and Israel.

2) If a regime is seen to oppress members of a minority religion, even if contained within its borders, international opinion will be reflected as disdain: e.g. Serbia and China ( in relation to Tibet). Of course #1 and #2 can overlap here a bit.

Exception to Exception #2: If the religion is Christianity: e.g. Sudan

There is also a caveat to the Rule:

The degree of disdain for any country that sticks its nose in the business of other countries is directly proportional to the level of influence that country exerts on the rest of the world, rather than how far the nose is stuck, for what reasons, and in what manner.

Thus, a US invasion of any country will always engender greater disdain than invasions by lesser countries: e.g. China in Tibet, the Soviet Union in Afghanistan, or Iraq in Kuwait.

The degree of disdain is also proportional to the degree of deference the leader displays to Europe. Thus a europhile like Bill Clinton can stick his nose in the business of Serbia, Haiti, and the Sudan and not engender disdain, but the swaggering "cowboy" Bush is despised before he even begins to extend his nose.

In the end, it is a complex mix of dynamics, but a few stand out above the rest:

1) The President of the US has an influence over the lives of individuals around the world that is, at least, perceived to be equal to or greater than the leaders of their own nations. However, only the citizens of the US get to vote him into or out of power. This would annoy the heck out of me if I were a citizen of another country, and particularly if I had little faith in the good judgment of the American people. (Can you imagine the French being relied upon to decide who the most powerful person in the world might be?)

2) Jealousy and resentment. Plain and simple. Even more grating is it to some of the more imperious of prior world powers.

3) The world's expectations for America are quite high and, in some instances, go so far as to hold that the US should raise the interests of the world over its own.

I think there is even a large segment of home grown Bush despisers who come to their bilious state out of a sense of solidarity with the rest of the world (generally read as Europe). These are the would be World Citizens who very definitely subscribe to #3 above.

In the end it does matter whether or not the rest of the world despises George Bush. In part because they don't seem capable of distinguishing between Americans and their political leaders, but also because no matter how powerful we are, it's easier to protect and advance our interests if the rest of the world likes us. However, that it matters does not mean that it is imperative. If, at then end of his eight years in office, GW Bush leaves America with an economy as healthy or healthier than the one we have today, and more secure than it is today, I really won't care very much what international opinion has to say about him.
0 Replies
 
 

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