14
   

Why in the world would Einstein suggest....

 
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2015 02:28 am
@fresco,
Quote:
There are no "conclusions" made by physicists about reality of faster/slower. Only statements about the equivalence of appearances or "observational constraints" in inertial reference frames.


And you act like you know something about SR, Fresco?

To a man, physicists agree that it is the travelling twin's clock that REALLY runs slower.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2015 02:37 am
@fresco,
Quote:
The twin paradox (so called) was a curiosity raised by Einstein himself..And it is that first show of genius of the upsetting of "common sense" in physics which many find it difficult to cope with.


Yeah, right, eh? Lorentz made the same prediction about 15 years before Al did.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  2  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2015 02:46 am
@layman,
There's a lot on this page: http://galileoandeinstein.physics.virginia.edu/lectures/srelwhat.html

But I'm going to select what seems to be a relevant part and highlight what I think needs to be noticed:


Quote:
This means that Jack sees Jill’s light clock to be going slow—a longer time between clicks—compared to his own identical clock. Obviously, the effect is not dramatic at real railroad speeds. The correction factor is , which differs from 1 by about one part in a trillion even for a bullet train! Nevertheless, the effect is real and can be measured, as we shall discuss later.

It is important to realize that the only reason we chose a light clock, as opposed to some other kind of clock, is that its motion is very easy to analyze from a different frame. Jill could have a collection of clocks on the wagon, and would synchronize them all. For example, she could hang her wristwatch right next to the face of the light clock, and observe them together to be sure they always showed the same time. Remember, in her frame her light clock clicks every 2w/c seconds, as it is designed to do. Observing this scene from his position beside the track, Jack will see the synchronized light clock and wristwatch next to each other, and, of course, note that the wristwatch is also running slow by the factor In fact, all her clocks, including her pulse, are slowed down by this factor according to Jack. Jill is aging more slowly because she’s moving!

But this isn’t the whole story—we must now turn everything around and look at it from Jill’s point of view. Her inertial frame of reference is just as good as Jack’s. She sees his light clock to be moving at speed v (backwards) so from her point of view his light blip takes the longer zigzag path, which means his clock runs slower than hers. That is to say, each of them will see the other to have slower clocks, and be aging more slowly.


So appearances, observations and measurements within a certain inertial reference frame are crucial, and no third, objective frame is included.

Then there's this part, which can be perplexing:

Quote:
This phenomenon is called time dilation. It has been verified in recent years by flying very accurate clocks around the world on jetliners and finding they register less time, by the predicted amount, than identical clocks left on the ground. Time dilation is also very easy to observe in elementary particle physics, as we shall discuss in the next section.


But it's important to note that there are still only two inertial frames in this. The "realness" of the effect is equally "real" in both frames, although they wind up measuring contradictory amounts of time passing. If you took the clock that had been left on the ground and measured it on a flying jetliner, you're just switching to the other of the two frames of reference, not finding a 3rd-person, objective or somehow more real frame.
Quehoniaomath
 
  0  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2015 02:53 am
@FBM,
please don't interfere, mate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2015 02:53 am
@FBM,
Quote:
If you took the clock that had been left on the ground and measured it on a flying jetliner, you're just switching to the other of the two frames of reference, not finding a 3rd-person, objective or somehow more real frame.


Not sure what you are saying here, FBM, but the Hafele-Keating (airplane) experiment has been discussed a fair amount in this thread already.

To sum it up, the faster-moving clocks did, in fact, show less time elapsed that the less fast (keep in mind that even the earth clock is moving).

This was, indeed, an objective fact, not a mere matter of appearance.

Had the guy on the faster moving airplane assumed that the earth clock was running slower, he simply would have been WRONG. He would not be "equally correct" as the guy on earth saying the plane clock had slowed down (he was RIGHT).
FBM
 
  2  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2015 02:55 am
@layman,
layman wrote:

Quote:
If you took the clock that had been left on the ground and measured it on a flying jetliner, you're just switching to the other of the two frames of reference, not finding a 3rd-person, objective or somehow more real frame.


Not sure what you are saying here, FBM, but the Hafele-Keating (airplane) experiment has been discussed a fair amount in this thread already.

To sum it up, the faster-moving clocks did, in fact, show less time elapsed that the less fast (keep in mind that even the earth clock is moving).

This was, indeed, an objective fact, not a matter of appearance.

Had the guy on the faster moving airplane assumed that the earth clock was running slower, he simply would have been WRONG. He would not be "equally correct" as the guy on earth saying the plane clock had slowed down (he was RIGHT).


In what way objective? Was it measured in a third inertial frame?
layman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2015 03:07 am
@FBM,
Quote:
In what way objective? Was it measured in a third inertial frame?


Well, the explanation is complex, and raises additional questions about SR (again these have been discussed earlier, although I'm not sure I can locate the posts easily).

To make the point, it's as though two clocks were synchronized before take-off. When the plane landed, the two clocks were compared. The flying clock recorded less elapsed time than did the stationary earth clock.

Here's a video clip from youtube showing the experiment being repeated:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdRmCqylsME
FBM
 
  2  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2015 03:17 am
@layman,
layman wrote:

Quote:
In what way objective? Was it measured in a third inertial frame?


Well, the explanation is complex, and raises additional questions about SR (again these have been discussed earlier, although I'm not sure I can locate the posts easily).

To make the point, it's as though two clocks were synchronized before take-off. When the plane landed, the two clocks were compared. The flying clock recorded less elapsed time than did the stationary earth clock.


Yes, and since they're measured in one of the two inertial frames, the results are not objective. They're subjective to that frame.

But I think the larger issue, if I understand correctly, is that SR says that there is no grand, universally objective frame in/by which motion in every smaller frame can be evaluated in some ultimate manner, truer or realer somehow than the subjective measurements or experiences in the smaller frames. That's counterintuitive and a lot of people resist that, despite all the experiments that support it. The omniscient perspective in books and films just doesn't seem to exist outside fiction.
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2015 03:25 am
@FBM,
Quote:
Yes, and since they're measured in one of the two inertial frames, the results are not objective. They're subjective to that frame


I don't follow you here. There is nothing "subjective" about what the hands on a clock read. Same if it's two clocks.

Quote:
...SR says that there is no grand, universally objective frame in/by which motion in every smaller frame can be evaluated in some ultimate manner, truer or realer somehow...


Well, the thing is, you don't need to know "absolute truth" to make a relative judgment. If I'm going down the road at 100 mph, then that 100 is relative to the earth's surface. It doesn't matter if my "absolute speed" was known to be 1000 mph, 10,000 mph, or whatever. I can still measure my speed relative to the earth. Whatever my "absolute" speed, it's presumably 100 mph more than the earth's surface.

But even that is a different question than the one Thomas and I were discussing which was, between the two, which one is moving (relatively). Both a car and the earth surface may be travelling at over a million miles an hour (as the astronomists say they are), but that is all shared motion. The part that is NOT shared is the motion my car has relative to the earth.
FBM
 
  2  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2015 03:35 am
@layman,
layman wrote:

I don't follow you here. There is nothing "subjective" about what the hands on a clock read. Same if it's two clocks.


We may be inching towards an ambiguity on the word "subjective." Subjective in the sense of a human evaluation isn't what I mean. I mean subjective to a delineated frame of reference, not a person. The very fact that the two clocks read different times attests to the frame-subjectivity of measurements made in those frames. If there were no frame subjectivity, the clocks would read the same.

Quote:
Well, the thing is, you don't need to know "absolute truth" to make a relative judgment. If I'm going down the road at 100 mph, then that 100 is relative to the earth's surface. It doesn't matter if my "absolute speed" was known to be 1000 mph, 10,000 mph, or whatever. I can still measure my speed relative to the earth. Whatever my "absolute" speed, it's 100 mph more than the earth's surface.


In the given context of this discussion, in what way are "relative judgment" and "subjective judgment" different? A relative judgment is made from within a delineated frame and is subjective to that frame, I think. Whether the observation is of something happening in a different frame or an event within that frame, the result is dependent upon which frame you're in.

From the thought experiment I quoted earlier, if you take Jack's clock to Jill's frame of reference, she'll see it as Jack's clock ran faster than hers during the time they were apart. Take Jill's clock into Jack's frame, and he'll reach the opposite conclusion. That's due to frame subjectivity. Maybe the hands of the clocks will be in the same place in both instances, and thus the difference in time, but how that fact is interpreted as real depends upon which frame you make the measurement in.
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2015 04:23 am
@FBM,
Quote:
The very fact that the two clocks read different times attests to the frame-subjectivity of measurements made in those frames. If there were no frame subjectivity, the clocks would read the same.


Well, FBM, to my knowledge no one has made that claim ("the clocks would read the same"). And I can't see why that would be either. Let's say the time on one clock (whoever's it may be) says 2:00 and the other 3:00. In terms of SR theory, that would tell you that the frame which produced the clock reading 2:00 was the one which was moving faster. Clocks are just mechanical devices. If a clock was in the air for 6 hours, and a clock which had been on the ground for those same 6 hours was taken up to the plane, it would still read faster wouldn't it?

Let's just exaggerate and say that after 6 hours the plane clock read 2:00 and the earth clock 3:00. Would the earth clock suddenly "jump back" an hour if taken to the plane, you think?
FBM
 
  2  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2015 04:29 am
@layman,
Of course not. But the clocks read what they read depending on which frame they were in. That's what I mean by frame subjectivity. It's what SR is all about. Time slowing as you approach c. I'm not sure what the difficulty is. Maybe it's my lack of skill in explaining it.
Quehoniaomath
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2015 04:46 am
@FBM,
Quote:
Time slowing as you approach c


There is NO proof of that, mate!!
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  3  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2015 10:42 am
@layman,
layman wrote:
All three claim they have not moved a single inch during the last 10 minutes.

Can they all be correct?

Impossible to say, because all three claims are underspecified. "A single inch" --- relative to what?
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2015 12:25 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
Impossible to say, because all three claims are underspecified. "A single inch" --- relative to what?


Relative to any and every other object in the universe that's moving, Thomas:

http://able2know.org/topic/265997-32#post-5893514

As I've said, in SR every "frame of reference" serves as it's own "ether." It sees itself as "absolutely" motionless. But, since "every other object in the universe" INCLUDES the other two, you can just say "relative to the other two," if that makes you feel more comfortable. So:

1. A claims he has not moved a single inch relative to both Memphis and B
2.Memphis claims it has not moved a single inch relative to both A and B, and
3. B claims he has not moved a single inch relative to both Memphis and A

Given that, is it still "impossible to say" whether all 3 can be correct in their respective claims?"
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2015 01:36 pm
@FBM,
Quote:
But the clocks read what they read depending on which frame they were in


Absolutely, FBM, but I think that the phrasing "depending on which frame they were in" puts the emphasis on the wrong thing. According to SR, it is the speed differential which causes time dilation. No need to phrase that in terms of abstract, secondary notions such as a "frame of reference."

The clock that is moving (faster) will run slower. So the statement of yours that I quoted could be re-worded to say: " the clocks read what they read depending on their relative speed." To me, that's much less confusing.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2015 05:28 pm
@FBM,
FBM, is was very astute of you to notice, after posting the "summary" by the physicist of "frames of reference" that the following is, in that light "perplexing:"

Quote:
This phenomenon is called time dilation. It has been verified in recent years by flying very accurate clocks around the world on jetliners and finding they register less time, by the predicted amount, than identical clocks left on the ground


I responded by claiming that:

Quote:
Had the guy on the faster moving airplane assumed that the earth clock was running slower, he simply would have been WRONG. He would not be "equally correct" as the guy on earth saying the plane clock had slowed down (he was RIGHT).


You don't seem to want to accept this response. You seem to think that the lack of an "absolute" measure of motion precludes any answer to this.

But I'm not sure why. As an analogy, the word "tall" is relative. But I don't need a standard for what is "absolutely tall" in order to measure a person's (or a building's) height. See what I'm getting at?

But, underlying your concerns, I think, it that you find it troubling that, on the one hand, SR advocates claim that certain questions have "no meaning" on that account. They say there is no preferred frame.

No wonder you're perplexed, if you accept them at their word. Their IS a preferred frame, implicitly posited by them, in every statement which starts out with a phrase "from A's frame of reference..."

Similarly, without a preferred frame of some kind, they could not possibly say that the travelling twin ages slower than the earth twin (as they do say). That all part of the inconsistency of SR, and it creates a lot of confusion.

In the twin case, they essentially establish the earth as the preferred frame (it gives you the "right" answer). In essence, they say that it is, in fact, the traveler who is moving (and hence who's clock runs slow).

Yet it other contexts, they want to say it is "impossible" to determine who's moving. Just another confusion-generating inconsistency, when you really think about it.
FBM
 
  2  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2015 05:56 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Had the guy on the faster moving airplane assumed that the earth clock was running slower, he simply would have been WRONG. He would not be "equally correct" as the guy on earth saying the plane clock had slowed down (he was RIGHT).


SR says nothing about someone in one reference frame making assumptions about what's happening in another one. Observations, yes, but not assumptions.

I'm not sure why you think I'm troubled or perplexed. You seem to be the only one having a hard time comprehending SR.

Quote:
Their [sic] IS a preferred frame, implicitly posited by them, in every statement which starts out with a phrase "from A's frame of reference..."


No, that's an arbitrary frame of reference. The alphabet starts with A.

Also, we're slipping towards another ambiguity. A "preferred frame of reference" does not designate a frame preferred by the physicists. A preferred frame of reference in the context of SR would be the omniscient perspective, one that the whole universe favors, which exists only in fiction.
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2015 06:13 pm
@FBM,
Quote:
I'm not sure why you think I'm troubled or perplexed
.

You used the word "perplexing," I just didn't quote that part.


Quote:
SR says nothing about someone in one reference frame making assumptions about what's happening in another one. Observations, yes, but not assumptions.


FBM, relativists always want to use the metaphorical verb "sees" when all they really mean is "assumes." It is the necessary premise of SR that A insist that B is the one moving. Without that, "complete disaster" follows for SR. To be a good relativist, A MUST ("see") the other as moving, so that's what they are said to "see." But really, it's just what they presuppose.

Two observers can "see" a so-called light clock from a distance. But the meaning they derive from what they "see" is strictly dependent upon their initial assumptions. If they assume they are motionless, they will "see" the other's clock as running slower. On the other hand, if they presuppose that THEY are moving, and the light clock is not, they will come to the opposite conclusion.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2015 06:22 pm
@FBM,
Quote:
Quote:
Also, we're slipping towards another ambiguity. A "preferred frame of reference" does not designate a frame preferred by the physicists
.

In Physics, there is a difference between a "preferred frame" and an "absolute frame" (although an absolute frame would definitely also be a "preferred frame').

Quote:
In theoretical physics, a preferred or privileged frame is usually a special hypothetical frame of reference in which the laws of physics might appear to be identifiably different (simpler) from those in other frames.


In SR, inertial frames are "preferred frames;"

Quote:
Although there is no preferred inertial frame under Newtonian mechanics or special relativity, the set of all inertial frames as a group may still be said to be "preferred" over noninertial frames in these theories, since the laws of physics derived for inertial motion only work exactly in this special category of frames.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preferred_frame
 

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