14
   

Why in the world would Einstein suggest....

 
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2015 12:57 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
Try doing a bit of reading for a change


I have never tried to match you in the realm of pompous, condescending pretentiousness, Fresco, and I won't try to start now.

YOU WIN!!!

That game.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2015 01:03 pm
@Olivier5,
No. I'm not going to "flesh this out" here. I have responded to your "realism" query with an appropriate reference sufficient for an answer. The concept of "empirical constructivism"is antithetical to straight "dualism" without any further comment from me.
fresco
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2015 01:12 pm
@layman,
1916 reprint of his main work "The theory of electrons" containing notes (written in 1909 and 1915).

fresco
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2015 01:13 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:

Quote:
What happened to your Harvard Prof's answer to Olivier's question ?


What's your question. Dr. Morin's assessment is quite clearly stated.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2015 01:14 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Dr. Morin's assessment is quite clearly stated.


Your turn....give chapter and verse.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2015 01:21 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
1916 reprint of his main work "The theory of electrons" containing notes (written in 1909 and 1915).


Do you have that book in front of you, carefully re-typing it's contents word for word OR

Do you have a website you are reading from?
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2015 01:23 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
give chapter and verse.


http://able2know.org/topic/265997-22#post-5887657
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2015 01:26 pm
@layman,
No....its your turn. You give the "clear assessment" quote from your Dr (sic) Morin.
You don't want me to win again do you ? Twisted Evil

(reading pathetic attempt at producing citation of "clear assessment". Wittering about "facts" and "is-ness" and "smart professors" on your part
merely underscores your naivity)

I see you have failed. I WIN AGAIN ! Laughing
layman
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2015 01:38 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
(reading pathetic attempt at producing citation of "clear assessment")

I see you have failed. I WIN AGAIN !


Kudos!

Unfortunately, no one has any idea of what you are talking about.

Do you have ANY specific question? Any at all?

Do you have comment of substance whatsoever to make?
fresco
 
  3  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2015 01:45 pm
@layman,
Yes. Answer this. Have you been kicked off a physics forum ?
layman
 
  0  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2015 01:48 pm
@fresco,
Quote:
Yes. Answer this. Have you been kicked off a physics forum ?


I see you have nothing of substance to say. Typical.

How many times now, Fresco, have you sworn you would make no more posts in this thread because it was presumably "beneath you?"

No other place to play the troll?
fresco
 
  3  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2015 01:54 pm
@layman,
Laughing
I'll take that as a "yes". Did they have you for breakfast ?
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2015 02:10 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Where or where does this guys says that one is obligated to think of oneself as immobile???


It's generally one of the first things "explained" in a course on SR, Oliver. An example:

Quote:
Both John and Hunter have the right to observe the action from their respective frames of reference. All motion is relative to your frame of reference.


http://science.howstuffworks.com/science-vs-myth/everyday-myths/relativity5.htm

With SR EVERYTHING in the universe that's moving, is moving RELATIVE TO YOU. Which is the equivalent of saying that YOU are the absolute, motionless frame of reference.

Every clock, everywhere in the universe that is "moving," is running slower than your clock. Under SR itself, this would be the very definition of an "absolute frame of refernence," i.e. that frame which records the fastest time in the universe.

Although this quote merely says you have the "right" to observe things from your (implicitly absolute) frame of reference, in SR you have the DUTY to do so.

I have already cited Dr. Morin on that point. Here it is again:

Quote:
One might view the statement, "A sees B's clock running slow, and also B sees A's clock running slow," as somewhat unsettling. But in fact, it would be a complete disaster for the theory if A and B viewed each other in different ways. A critical fact in the theory of relativity is that A sees B in exactly the same way that B sees A
.

http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~djmorin/chap11.pdf (Page XI-14)

Once again in SR to say the other guy's clock is running slower is equivalent to saying "the other guy is moving."
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2015 02:28 pm
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

No. I'm not going to "flesh this out" here. I have responded to your "realism" query with an appropriate reference sufficient for an answer. The concept of "empirical constructivism"is antithetical to straight "dualism" without any further comment from me.

Resorting to dogma now? Oh well... Lampoon all the scientific idealists you'd like, fresco.
fresco
 
  2  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2015 02:36 pm
@Olivier5,
Sorry. But if you want to fight about something other than the contents of this thread, you need to start another one .
(Even Stalin knew when to keep his mouth shut to Churchill when fighting Hitler Wink) .
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2015 02:39 pm
@layman,
In SR, a guy on a moving train CANNOT say: "With respect to the earth, I am the one moving, not the earth." That is forbidden.

He must, instead, "contend" that he is absolutely motionless relative to the earth and that everything on the surface of the earth is moving "past" him. All trees, towns, road signs, everything. THEY are moving, NOT him.
layman
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2015 03:04 pm
@layman,
If I'm out on the freeway, cruising at a steady 60 mph, and am approaching my destination (let's say it's Grandma's house), I can't say, per SR: "I'm almost there." Instead, I must say: "Grandma's house is almost here."

Grandma, in her house, has good reason to think you are coming to her. What if you agreed? What if you posited that, indeed, you were approaching her, rather than vice versa?

Well, in that case, according to Professor Morin (and anyone else who thinks the consequences through), "it would be a complete disaster for the theory."
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 23 Feb, 2015 02:33 am
@Olivier5,
The types of arguments made in support of SR can be truly fascinating. The following quotes are all from Einstein himself: This argument appears to be designed to prove that common sense is of little value, at least when it comes to SR:

Quote:
Just how little merit there is in calling upon the so-called "common sense", is shown by the following counterexample.


OK, there's the thesis, next comes the "counterexample," but first:

Quote:
Lenard himself says that so far no objections could be raised against the validity of the special principle of relativity (that is the principle of relativity of uniform translational motion of coordinate systems).


"Lenard" is a writer who questioned SR. But Al is saying that Lenard has found SR unobjectionable. So, from this point on, the argument is directed against one who ACCEPTS SR, not one who rejects it. Now for the counterexample:

Quote:
The uniformly riding train can equally well be regarded as "at rest", the rails together with the entire surroundings can be regarded as "uniformly moving". Would the "common sense" of the train driver allow for that? He will point out that it is not the surroundings that he needs to continuously heat and lubricate, it is the locomotive, and consequently it must be in the latter that the result of his labour shows itself.


http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dialog_about_Objections_against_the_Theory_of_Relativity

This is absolutely flabbergasting. Basically, he's saying that the common sense of the fireman on the train will inform him that it is the train, not the surface of the earth, which is moving.

That's certainly true. And that would certainly undermine any claim that the train isn't moving. So, common sense would undermine SR. OK. True that.

Hasn't he just argued that "common sense" will reject SR? Sure, he has. But how could this possibly show "how little merit there is in calling upon the so-called "common sense," as he claimed he was going to show?

Basically his argument is simply that Lenard, who accepts relativity, must also reject common sense. That's true too. But how does it prove that common sense is worthless?

It doesn't, and can't. Suppose Lenard happened to reject SR. Then common sense would fully support his position, not counter it. Common sense only opposes those who assert the validity of SR to begin with. His basic response to Lenard is simply: "You MUST reject common sense, because you accept SR, so shut the hell up about common sense."

What's going on here? He saying common sense has "little merit" to those who accept SR. But in doing so he has shown that SR has little merit to those with common sense.

The common sense position unquestionably prevails here. It is easy to determine that energy is required to keep the train moving. "Common sense" (aka simple known laws of physics) MUST lead one must conclude that the train IS moving.

Al therefore says: So we can reject common sense (known physical laws)

But anyone with a lick of common sense (knowledge of physical laws) will simply say: So we can reject SR.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Feb, 2015 07:25 am
@layman,
Sorry but I am not interested in rambling against relativity with you.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 23 Feb, 2015 08:59 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:

Sorry. But if you want to fight about something other than the contents of this thread, you need to start another one .
(Even Stalin knew when to keep his mouth shut to Churchill when fighting Hitler Wink) .

You came to me with your out of topic rant on realism. Get over yourself. Empiricism is rooted in dualism, whether you realize it or not.
 

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