14
   

Why in the world would Einstein suggest....

 
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 4 May, 2015 02:28 am
@fresco,
Quote:
The Michelson Morley INDICATED that "the speed of light was constant" (aether free)...


Continuing to show your ignorance of topics which you presume to adjudicate over. The aether has nothing to do with the speed of light being constant (or not).
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 4 May, 2015 02:43 am
@fresco,
Quote:
You obviously don't grasp the pragmatists' point that "what you measure" cannot be philosophically distinguished "what actually is".


This is perhaps one of the most philosophically ignorant things I've ever heard, Fresky. Of course the two can be philosophically distinguished. It is absurd to suggest otherwise.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 4 May, 2015 02:58 am
@layman,
More drivel ? You are to epistemology what Himmler was to flower arranging,
You seem to need a good philosophical slapping now and again to wake you up (if you were ever awake). No need to thank me ! Wink
layman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 4 May, 2015 03:40 am
@fresco,
Your ongoing attempts to hijack every thread you see and try to turn it into a forum for expounding on your absurd solipsism and long-rejected epistemological positions are rather pathetic, Fresky, and I'm not going to get deep in that crap with you again. That said, I will note the following:

Quote:
Operationalization is used to specifically refer to the scientific practice of operationally defining, where even the most basic concepts are defined through the operations by which we measure them. This comes from the philosophy of science book The Logic of Modern Physics (1927), by Percy Williams Bridgman, whose methodological position is called operationalism.

Einstein's disagreement with the operationalist approach was criticized by Bridgman[10] as follows: "Einstein did not carry over into his general relativity theory the lessons and insights he himself has taught us in his special theory."



Unfortunately for poor Percy Bridgman, his operationalism went down in flames with the positivism which adopted it. Like Ayer, he had to recant, saying:

Quote:
In short, I feel that I have created a Frankenstein, which has certainly got away from me. I abhor the word operationalism or operationism, which seems to imply a dogma, or at least a thesis of some kind. The thing I have envisaged is too simple to be dignified by so pretentious a name.


All said and done:

Quote:
When subjected to the scrutiny of professional philosophers, however, Bridgman's ideas were soon exposed as unsystematic and undeveloped, as he freely admitted himself. Moreover, it became evident that his ideas did not help logical positivists solve the key problems that they were struggling with. After the initial fascination, the standard positivist (and post-positivist) reaction to operationalism was disappointment, and operationalism was often seen as a failed philosophy that did not live up to its promises.


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/operationalism/#CriOpe

You're 60 years behind the times, Fresky, and yet claim to be some expert on epistemology.

You aint. You're just another blowhard, I'm afraid.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 4 May, 2015 04:30 am
@layman,
A little more elaboration from the same website (which you have indicated you favor), in case you missed the point, Fresky (which I assume you did):

Quote:
Nowhere was the positivist disappointment with Bridgman sharper than in considerations of operationalism as a theory of meaning....Consider the following statement, the last part of which I have already quoted:
Quote:
the concept of length involves as much as and nothing more than the set of operations by which length is determined. In general, we mean by any concept nothing more than a set of operations; the concept is synonymous with the corresponding set of operations. (Bridgman 1927, 5)


...The kind of absolute control on the meaning of scientific concepts that Bridgman wished for is not possible....Going further than that, many critics of operationalism have argued that not every good scientific concept needs to have an operational definition. If operationalism means demanding that every concept and every inferential step should have an immediate operational significance, it constitutes an overly restrictive empiricism.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  0  
Reply Mon 4 May, 2015 02:54 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Michelson Morley does not require that length and distance be determined by speed (which makes no sense) rather than speed being determined by distance and time. It certainly did not require the postulate that the speed of light actually IS constant in all inertial frames.


You are welcome to try and articulate an alternative theory that would explain the MM experiment better than SR does, Lay. Go ahead, don't be shy.

More generally, let me ask again: what do you propose? What theory do you support? Are you in agreement with any modern physicist, and if yes, which one?

Critique is easy, but art is difficult. It's soooo easy to criticize forever what others are saying, while never affirming anything...
layman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 4 May, 2015 03:17 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
You are welcome to try and articulate an alternative theory...


I don't have to invent one. Henrik Lorentz did so back in 1891, 14 years before Al took his Lorentz transformations, whole cloth, in 1905, and applied them to SR.

The basic rationale has already been stated. Because time dilates and lengths shorten on moving objects, Michelson and Moreley "measured" the speed of light to be c even though it wasn't actually c.

All phyicists then, and now, concede that Lorentz's theory explains every known phenomenon just as well as, if not better than, SR.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 4 May, 2015 03:47 pm
@Olivier5,
I have posted, and discussed at some length, the following citation several times in this thread already. That's in addition to many other explications and discussions of AST's (absolute simultaneity theories of motion). Read the thread, or do your own independent research , if you're not aware of these things. Sexl and Mansouri did a very thorough and detailed comparison of these theories many years ago. Their conclusion (which is generally accepted) was:

Quote:
Mansouri and Sexl spoke about the "remarkable result that a theory maintaining absolute simultaneity is equivalent to special relativity." They also noticed the similarity between this test theory and Lorentz ether theory of Hendrik Lorentz, Joseph Larmor and Henri Poincaré.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test_theories_of_special_relativity
layman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 4 May, 2015 04:03 pm
@layman,
Quote:
Read the thread, or do your own independent research , if you're not aware of these things.


For a simple introduction you could start here:
Quote:

Many aspects of Lorentz's theory were incorporated into special relativity (SR) with the works of Albert Einstein and Hermann Minkowski.
Today LET is often treated as some sort of "Lorentzian" or "neo-Lorentzian" interpretation of special relativity. The introduction of length contraction and time dilation for all phenomena in a "preferred" frame of reference, which plays the role of Lorentz's immobile aether, leads to the complete Lorentz transformation (see the Robertson–Mansouri–Sexl test theory as an example). Because the same mathematical formalism occurs in both, it is not possible to distinguish between LET and SR by experiment.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorentz_ether_theory
fresco
 
  2  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2015 12:12 am
@Olivier5,
Smile
You surely did not think you would get a coherent answer from someone who does not even understand the concept of "measurement", let alone the nuances of any epistemological debate as to what constitutes a "satisfactory explanation". His comments on a recent "logic" thread" clearly indicate he is ignorant of that undergraduate subject called "scientific method" which embraces those topics.
We are dealing here with a rather pathetic obsessive attempting to rationalize his lack of schooling. His meandering around what he thinks is "relevant literature" reminds me of Von Daniken's biased search for "evidence of our alien ancestors". Its a pity he dropped out really as he has the makings of a competent thinker who burnt his intellectual boats.

contrex
 
  2  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2015 12:49 am
@fresco,
fresco wrote:
Von Daniken's biased search for "evidence of our alien ancestors

Ah, good old Erich! I am old enough to remember him... I think I know the source of his "bias"... he used to be a hotel manager in Switzerland and in 1970 he was convicted of the long term embezzlement of $130,000 from the hotel company (around a million dollars in today's money) and also from loan companies; he already had a criminal record for fraud and theft. The judge said he had used the money to "fund a playboy lifestyle" and that he was an expert con man specializing in frauds of the written type(!). He got 3 years in jail, and a $700 fine (around $5,000 today). While he was in jail "Chariot Of The Gods?" was published and he got enough royalties to pay off his fine and debts. He had used forged references to get loans and he tried to enter a plea of nullity on the grounds that the loan providers had not checked his references properly. Some chutzpah!.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2015 02:15 am
@layman,
Gees, layman, you cant cure this lot by being right . They dont know right . They're limited education has them googling everything they come up with, I bet they dont understand the maths behind both theories anyway . I'm not a mathematician, I did enough for Engineering and self-taught the rest but I have troubole about half way through so I guess it requires a mathematician or a physicist to fully follow it . Ask them to explain the differences with examples...this should be fun !
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2015 02:56 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
They're limited education

I see yours was limited in the English department.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2015 04:31 am
@contrex,
A typo is all you've got ? You had better not make one yourself from now on, seeing that would make you a hypocritical prick .

Oh wait...here's one " Can always buy another one. " Is that a sentence in French because it makes you a hypocritical prick in English .
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2015 06:12 am
@layman,
Is this your pet theory, then? Note that it is almost identical to SR except for the hypothesis of a unmoving aether. It includes time dilatation and length contraction, etc.
contrex
 
  0  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2015 06:57 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
A typo is all you've got ?

"They're" for "their" is not a typo. It is an error, cause: ignorance.
Ionus
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2015 07:35 am
@contrex,
Quote:
"They're" for "their" is not a typo. It is an error, cause: ignorance.
Very Happy No one believes the cause is ignorance . Thank you for making a dick of yourself and making my job easier .

I can only hope you are not in an important position if you dont know what constitutes a typo . People think of what they are typing...well not you of course, but normal people...and if they think fast then their typing may contain errors that spell checkers do not pick up . If you are using a spell checker then that type of mistake is the only one that will get through . Proof reading prevents that, but I am on line in the middle of the night and dont have time .

I have proven you are a hypocritical prick . Where's your French boyfriend anyway ? Arent you here to help him ?
contrex
 
  0  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2015 07:52 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:
Proof reading prevents that, but I am on line in the middle of the night and dont have time .

Distracted because you are masturbating?
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2015 08:11 am
@contrex,
Quote:
Distracted because you are masturbating?
No . Not everyone is a sex addict, but it does explain why you are in France . No doubt you couldnt get a sex partner anywhere else .
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 May, 2015 08:16 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Quote:
Distracted because you are masturbating?
No . Not everyone is a sex addict, but it does explain why you are in France . No doubt you couldnt get a sex partner anywhere else .

I am in Spain, not France. Also I have had many "sex partners" (Is that how you think of them?) all over Europe, the Middle East, Asia, and North and South America, so that proves you are a liar.
 

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