14
   

Why in the world would Einstein suggest....

 
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2015 07:28 pm
@Thomas,

Quote:
One might view the statement, "A sees B's clock running slow, and also B sees A's clock running slow," as somewhat unsettling. But in fact, it would be a complete disaster for the theory if A and B viewed each other in different ways. A critical fact in the theory of relativity is that A sees B in exactly the same way that B sees A.


Quote:
I have no problem with that
.

OK, great. Now let's look at what this is saying. Let's take A to be a railside observer and B to be a passenger on a moving train.

If A claims he is not the one moving, and if B agrees, then now they are NOT seeing each other "in exactly the same way." This constitutes "a complete disaster for the theory," according to Prof. Morin.

Why aren't they "seeing each other in the same way?" Because now B does NOT "see" A's clock as going slower. Nor does he "see" his clock as going faster.

1. A Sees his clock as running faster, and B's as slower, yet
2. B ALSO "sees" A's clock as running faster, and his as running slower.

Not what is required to avoid a "complete disaster."
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2015 07:30 pm
@layman,
Layman, I suggest you go back to your own sources and sort out which ones assume an accelerated frame of reference and which ones assume an inertial system. When you do, I trust you will find that if both observers are in an inertial frame of reference each sees the other one's clock run slower. The effect where the astronaut twin's clock runs slower than the sedentary twin's even in the astronaut's frame of reference depends on the fact that the astronaut is accelerated and the stay-at-home brother is not.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2015 07:33 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
Your hypothetical is about acceleration and mass, not just movement.


Indeed it is, on an underlying level. But, if I didn't say it, I was assuming that the ship was sailing at a uniform speed.

F=MA, let's say (following Newton). All "force" is about mass and acceleration, and acceleration presumes some resulting movement, in most cases.

It is that fact which allows us to correctly conclude that it is the ship moving, even though BOTH the ship and the earth are moving at a uniform speed.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2015 07:35 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:
OK, great. Now let's look at what this is saying. Let's take A to be a railside observer and B to be a passenger on a moving train.

If A claims he is not the one moving, and if B agrees, then now they are NOT seeing each other "in exactly the same way." This constitutes "a complete disaster for the theory," according to Prof. Morin.

It's a good thing, then, that B will disagree that A is not the one moving. B will observe that A is moving in the same direction as the city of Chicago is.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2015 07:42 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:
and acceleration presumes some resulting movement, in most cases.

No it doesn't. For an obvious counterexample, every time your car approaches a red traffic light and you stop, an observer on the sidewalk will see your car accelerate (in the direction opposite to its movement), resulting in a lack of movement. Acceleration does not imply a resulting movement, only a change in the rate of movement.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2015 07:44 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
When you do, I trust you will find that if both observers are in an inertial frame of reference each sees the other one's clock run slower.


Of course. I have not assumed otherwise. In fact, that's what I see as the problem.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2015 07:46 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:
Of course. I have not assumed otherwise. In fact, that's what I see as the problem.

How is it a problem? Can you describe a physical experiment where it leads to contradictions?
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2015 07:49 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
Acceleration does not imply a resulting movement, only a change in the rate of movement.


Yes, I agree.

Quote:
an observer on the sidewalk will see your car accelerate (in the direction opposite to its movement),


I'm not really concerned about how any particular observer might "see" anything. The motion is absolute, right?
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2015 07:51 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:
I'm not really concerned about how any particular observer might "see" anything. The motion is absolute, right?

No, the motion is relative. The acceleration is absolute.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2015 07:52 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
It's a good thing, then, that B will disagree that A is not the one moving. B will observe that A is moving in the same direction as the city of Chicago is.


Yes, thank you. We don't want a "complete disaster" for SR now, do we? But, haven't you just conceded that this claim of yours was inaccurate?:

Quote:
...[it is] equally valid to ask "will this train stop in Chicago?".


As I said, the theory will fall apart (lightspeed will not be isotropic in all frames, etc.) UNLESS two observers make contradictory and mutually exclusive claims.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2015 08:11 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
No, the motion is relative. The acceleration is absolute.


I don't understand what you're saying here. If I'm in a dragster, accelerating from 0 to 150 mph, then my motion is still absolute, isn't it? Won't my motion be seen, as such, as "real motion" by everyone, including myself?

This guy, who has a PhD from M.I.T., keeps relating "acceleration" to movement:

Quote:
However, the term 'absolute acceleration' _does_ have a meaning. If you were on a roller coaster, even on one which has closed cars with no windows, you would still be able to tell you were moving -- you'd be thrown every which way, and you would even be able to feel the motion in your guts, given you were securely fastened in your seat. Now, when riding a roller-coaster, you definitely know it is YOU that is moving, and not your friend standing on the ground waving to you...

Similarly the same kind of situation exists between the earth and the moon -- the two rotate around the center of mass of the earth-moon system, but this point lies well within the earth, so it makes sense to say the moon is moving around the earth, and not vice versa.


http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae118.cfm

The point being that you can't claim that "you can't tell who's moving" when accelerated motion is involved.

Of course, in many cases the laws of physics will ALSO tell you which one (of two) objects is "really" moving, even when both are inertial.

As Einstein himself noted, the fireman on a uniformly moving train, being required to continuously add fuel to, and lubricate, the train's engine will know that it is the train moving, not the tracks. Or do you still disagree with that proposition? Is it your claim that such knowledge CANNOT inform you about which one is moving (relative to the other)?

Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2015 09:00 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:
But, haven't you just conceded that this claim of yours was inaccurate?:

Quote:
...[it is] equally valid to ask "will this train stop in Chicago?".

No I haven't, but I do admit to phrasing my reply sloppily. I re-phrase as follows: When A on the wayside says, "I'm resting; you, B, are moving", B on the train replies, "oh yeah? Maybe relative to your frame of reference you are, you waysidist-chauvinist pig! But relative to my frame of reference, I am the one who's resting and you are the one who's moving."

Physically speaking, waysidism and trainism are still equally valid worldviews. If we seem to be living in a waysidist world, that's a matter of social convention, not physics.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2015 09:09 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
Physically speaking, waysidism and trainism are still equally valid worldviews. If we seem to be living in a waysidist world, that's a matter of social convention, not physics.


Oh, no, please, Thomas, don't tell me your in the solipsistic/subjectivist camp with Fresco.

I have responded to the "equally valid" proposition many times in this thread. You obviously have not read the thread in any detail. So, I'll kinda summarize once again. No, wait, hold on....let me find a post where I did that..

http://able2know.org/topic/265997-30#post-5893221
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2015 09:16 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
No I haven't, but I do admit to phrasing my reply sloppily. I re-phrase as follows: When A on the wayside says, "I'm resting; you, B, are moving", B on the train replies, "oh yeah? Maybe relative to your frame of reference you are, you waysidist-chauvinist pig! But relative to my frame of reference, I am the one who's resting and you are the one who's moving."


A mere tautology, Thomas. As I have already pointed out (and given citations to support) in the context of SR, the term "frame of reference" entails, by definition, the proposition that, from "your" frame of reference, you are absolutely motionless and everything else in the universe that's moving (relative to you) is moving.

That's what "your frame of reference" REQUIRES you to say, in SR.

In SR, "your frame of reference" serves the exact same role as did the ether in Lorentz's theory of motion. That is, it's an "absolute" frame of reference by virtue of which all motion can be gauged and "detected."

http://able2know.org/topic/265997-32#post-5893514
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2015 09:27 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:
Won't my motion be seen, as such, as "real motion" by everyone, including myself?

While you're accelerating, everyone agrees you are accelerating. Observers by the wayside know you're accelerating because they observe the position of your dragster relative to the road as it changes over time. You, inside your dragster, know you're accelerating because you are feeling your seat pushing you in a forward direction. Because this force is unexplained --- after all, you're not moving relative to your own frame of reference --- you conclude that your frame of reference is not an inertial system; it has to be an accelerated system.

But all that goes away after the acceleration is finished. Now you and the road are moving at a constant 150 mph relative to one another, with you and the spectators both in inertial frames of reference. This puts you all back in relativity-land, where no physical experiment can tell the difference between you speeding forward past the spectators and the spectators speeding backwards past you.

layman wrote:
The point being that you can't claim that "you can't tell who's moving" when accelerated motion is involved.

True, but that wasn't your assumption about your train. The assumption was that the train was moving at constant speed relative to the landscape around it. Also, the wording of the physicist you quote is sloppy: You can't tell who is "really moving", only who is really accelerating --- because the one who is really accelerating feels all those funky, unexplained forces acting on her. As Sir Isaac said, F = m*a. Notice there's no "v" (for velocity) in that formula.

layman wrote:
Or do you still disagree with that proposition? Is it your claim that such knowledge CANNOT inform you about which one is moving (relative to the other)?

I do. No physical inconsistency is introduced if the fireman, in his trainist frame of reference, theorizes that the rails are moving, that the train is standing still, and the train needs all that fuel and lubrication to keep standing still rather than be thrust backwards by it. If that's hard for you to imagine, try thinking of yourself on a treadmill. Then imagine yourself in the role of the train, and the treadmill in the role of the rails.
layman
 
  0  
Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2015 09:29 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
No I haven't [conceded that]


Well, in actuality, yes you have, whether you can see it or not.

I won't attempt to force you to acknowledge you concession. But if you honestly reflect on the matter I think you'll see it.

I made certain statements, which you denied. You have now conceded other points which establish that what I said about SR was accurate.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2015 09:31 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:
But what is "equally valid" even supposed to mean?

It means that the frame of reference you adopt does not change the outcomes of physical outcomes you predict based on the laws of physics.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2015 09:32 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:
You have now conceded other points which establish that what I said about SR was accurate.

You keep telling yourself that if it makes you happy. Just declare victory and move on.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2015 09:39 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
Then imagine[ yourself in the role of the train, and the treadmill in the role of the rails.


Yes, I see your point here, but, c'mon, give it some context. It that what happens every day of our lives? Whenever we go, say, downtown, then the moment we make that decision, the earth 'suddenly" starts moving under us while we remain motionless, and then stops doing so once it brings "downtown" to us?


Quote:
This puts you all back in relativity-land, where no physical experiment can tell the difference between you speeding forward past the spectators and the spectators speeding backwards past you.


Once again, you seem to be implying that the only way anyone can ever know anything is by conducting physical experiments in his own frame of reference. There are other sources of knowledge, don't you think? Such as, just for example:

1. I bought a ticket.
2. I got on the train
3. The train was motionless, but then it started moving
4. I KNEW it was moving, because I felt it.
5. I continued to feel it until the earth was moving at the rate of 60 mph relative to me.
6. I now see the fireman constantly inputing energy to maintain this speed.
7. I know that the law of inertia tells me that I do NOT suddenly quit moving, and become motionless, the second I quit accelerating.
8. If I had subsequently come to a stop, then I would have felt (de) acceleration when that happened.
9. Hmmm, it must be this train, rather than the earth, that is moving.

Or do you prefer the "brain in a vat," all this "could be an illusion" explanation for this type of phenomena?
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2015 09:46 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:
Whenever we go, say, downtown, then the moment we make that decision, the earth 'suddenly" starts moving under us while we remain motionless, and then stops doing so once it brings "downtown" to us?

I'm not saying this is a conventional view, only that it violates no physical laws. And it's physical laws that the theory of relativity is about.

layman wrote:
Once again, you seem to be implying that the only way anyone can ever know anything is by conducting physical experiments in his own frame of reference.

If the knowledge in question is about physics, then yes that's exactly what I'm implying. Physical experiments that test physical theories are the only source of knowledge about physics.
 

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