23
   

A Call for Intelligent Respectful Discussion

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2015 03:20 pm
@maxdancona,
Quote:
Let me ask you this question Hawykeye... at its best, what do you hope to get from Able2know


Most important: expand my understanding of where the truth is.

Second: expand my understanding of human nature

next in line: keep my mind sharp through debate

A lot of people seem to be here to get their opinions validated, or to scratch their sadistic itch or to pass the time pleasantly, or to make friends......that stuff either does not apply to me or it comes far down the list.

Quote:
I don't think the personal insults do you any good Hawkeye. For one thing, they make it very easy for many people to shut you off, even when the point you are making is compelling. If you are calling people "imbecilic asshole", they aren't going to listen to the argument you are making (no matter how logically valid your opinion is). Instead they are focused on the name they are going to call you back... and reasoning behind the points you are making is lost.
I tend to do in rome as the Romans do, this place is a hotbed for the American culture wars and neither in America nor at A2K is this war conducted pleasantly. I would be more tempered if my style was not as it is to be a provocateur with the aim of stirring up argument, I do this because I believe that in America today the much bigger problem than lack of civility is the lack of clear and truthful communication with the goal of understanding each other and also truth. In an ideal world American (and A2K) debate would be more civil but we must prioritize our problems. What I do is to try to temp people to lay their cards on the table, to get them to tell me what they really think, to try to get people to talk about things that looks like problems to me so that we can all understand each other and maybe start dealing with our disagreements.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2015 03:56 pm
@hawkeye10,
I cannot imagine anyone having to effort in any way...to get people in A2K to "lay their cards on the table" or to "tell you what they really think."

For the record, Hawk, who here doesn't?

Who are the shrinking violets?
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2015 04:12 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

I cannot imagine anyone having to effort in any way...to get people in A2K to "lay their cards on the table" or to "tell you what they really think."

For the record, Hawk, who here doesn't?

Who are the shrinking violets?


everyone who argues for politically correct speech, of which there are many. How many times have I or someone else attempted to talk about something only to watch many others attempt to shut down the communication with labels such as "racist" "misogynist" "homophobe" and so on? Worked to shame the rest of the membership out of participation in these "undesirable" threads or from conversing with "undesirable" people such as myself? It happens constantly here.
cicerone imposter
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2015 05:36 pm
@hawkeye10,
Don't take them to heart - it's silly.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  7  
Reply Fri 30 Jan, 2015 05:46 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

everyone who argues for politically correct speech, of which there are many. How many times have I or someone else attempted to talk about something only to watch many others attempt to shut down the communication with labels such as "racist" "misogynist" "homophobe" and so on? Worked to shame the rest of the membership out of participation in these "undesirable" threads or from conversing with "undesirable" people such as myself? It happens constantly here.


Free speech works both ways, dunnit? It's not just for people who agree with you. People slam you for your racism, you slam people for being PC. Just another day at the free-speaking office. If you want to be able to say what you like, you have to be prepared for others to do the same. Solution? Keep on doing what we're already doing: speaking our minds.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2015 07:14 am
@hawkeye10,
I have to agree with FBM on this, Hawk. Free speech...and "putting one's cards on the table" works both ways.

You say thing that infuriate at times...and a reaction to them IS appropriate.

I do agree with you that the name-calling can be tempered, but at time, the substance of the name calling certainly can (and ought to be) shared.

If you say racist things...some people are going to speak to why they think they are racist; some are going to take a shortcut and simply call you a racist.

On the whole, though, I think most everyone inA2K is VERY outspoken...and more than willing to let it all hang out.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2015 07:49 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

One thing CAN be done with that last class of people, Izzy.


Just avoid discussing anything with anyone whom you truly hold in contempt.Even the people who are not that far down the ladder...but who are, as you put it, stupid and/or say stupid things...are better simply ignored, rather than the constant and repeated "you are stupid", "you are ignorant" that permeate huge percentages of some people's posts.

keep in mind that refusing to engage regularly someone who is disturbing is a hell of a lot better than regularly engaging him/her.





Easier said than done when someone you don't have on ignore insists on quoting everything they reply to.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2015 08:08 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Easier said than done when someone you don't have on ignore insists on quoting everything they reply to.


One...nobody says things like this have to be easy. If you hold someone in contempt...do not engage that person no matter what. Or if you simply have to...do not plug in. Be your own person; don't allow that person to dictate how you will respond or the tone of your response.

Two...as for quoting in replies, Izzy, we are worlds apart on that. I think damn near every reply of disagreement should quote the matter being disputed...a full quote if it all matters. I understand that it is more fun to paraphrase and distort...and then argue against the distortions, but it is more ethical to quoting exactly and respond to what has actually been said.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2015 08:21 am
@Frank Apisa,
It still makes a mockery of your advice to put people on ignore.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2015 08:44 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

It still makes a mockery of your advice to put people on ignore.


But it does stop the nonsense of distortion such as you just displayed here, Izzy...which is a good thing.

If you do distort like you did here...the arguments made are just not legitimate.

Let me explain to anyone reading who does not understand what is going on here: There was a time when I advocated for never putting anyone on IGNORE. At some point (after listening to JTT's nonsense once too often)...I realized that my advocacy was too broad. I decided there are occasions where it makes sense to simply block out someone who constantly does what he used to do...and so I acknowledged my advocacy to be wrong...and acknowledged that "never" putting anyone on IGNORE was too broad.

Here, in order to suggest that I am making a "mockery" of something I said earlier, you stated "It still makes a mockery of your advice to put people on ignore"... which substantially distorts what I said and did.

Yeah...you are much better off not doing that, Izzy. IT's really cheap. I realize, though, if you had quoted what I actually said rather than doing that paraphrasing, you would not have been able to charge mockery…so I realize why you did it.

izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2015 08:53 am
@Frank Apisa,
Don't talk rot. I've not paraphrased anything. I answered a point, no quoting necessary, my response was directly after yours. If you want us to ignore people don't quote them. There's no distortion there, it's blindingly obvious.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2015 08:54 am
@Frank Apisa,
You can ignore someone without putting them on ignore.

Threads that turn into pages upon pages of meaningless personal insults don't enlighten anyone. I don't understand why people choose to jump into these name-calling contests (unless people really enjoy them). I have walked away, even from my own threads, when they turn into meaningless pissing contests.

Anyone can choose not to participate in these mud-slinging contests. If enough people choose not too, this will become a better place for real discussion. I am not trying to stamp out disagreement, quite the contrary. I would like the discussion of differences to be something more deep then people using hundreds of words over multiple posts (and sometimes multiple threads) to call each other "asshole".

You don't have to respond to a personal insult... and you certainly don't have to jump into a mud-slinging contest.

If more people just choose to stop the personal insult wars... and focus on discussion issues and idea... this will be a better place for anyone who wants intelligent discussion.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2015 09:47 am
@maxdancona,
Ain't gonna happen - ever.
Some ideals are never meant to be.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2015 09:47 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Don't talk rot. I've not paraphrased anything. I answered a point, no quoting necessary, my response was directly after yours. If you want us to ignore people don't quote them. There's no distortion there, it's blindingly obvious.


One...it is not "blindly obvious."

Two...you DID paraphrase.

Where did I say anything about IGNORE?

I talked about "not engaging" people whom you find to be contemptible.

There are one or two people here that I do not engage...I do not (or very seldom) respond to them. I do not ignore them...or put them on IGNORE. I read almost every comment in every post here...even the ones from people I am not especially fond of.

"Ignore" in not the same as "do not engage." YOU DID PARAPHRASE. If you had quoted what I said...you would not have made this mistake.

Have someone explain it to you.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2015 09:56 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

You can ignore someone without putting them on ignore.


Yes, you definitely can.

Quote:
Threads that turn into pages upon pages of meaningless personal insults don't enlighten anyone. I don't understand why people choose to jump into these name-calling contests (unless people really enjoy them). I have walked away, even from my own threads, when they turn into meaningless pissing contests.


When they turn into that, like you, I tend to "ignore" those posts. I do it by skimming them...just to be sure they are rants rather than a change of attitude. I try not to ignore any post or any poster completely.

Quote:
Anyone can choose not to participate in these mud-slinging contests. If enough people choose not too, this will become a better place for real discussion. I am not trying to stamp out disagreement, quite the contrary. I would like the discussion of differences to be something more deep then people using hundreds of words over multiple posts (and sometimes multiple threads) to call each other "asshole".


I understand that...and completely agree with you on that, Max. I hope I have made myself clear on that.

Quote:
You don't have to respond to a personal insult... and you certainly don't have to jump into a mud-slinging contest.


I try to stay away from mud-slinging contests...but as for personal insults, I often counter. Many times, I do it in as pleasant a way as possible. Occasionally, I just ignore an insult...but I acknowledge, that is not often. It simply is not in my personality. I am not an especially big guy...and early on it became apparent to me that if I took crap from people, it would be unending.

Quote:
If more people just choose to stop the personal insult wars... and focus on discussion issues and idea... this will be a better place for anyone who wants intelligent discussion.




It would, indeed. I compliment you on your attempts to bring this problem to the attention of the forum, Max. I did earlier...and it did not go far.

BTW...one thing that makes for a nicer forum is if people were to acknowledge when a point has been made. In another forum, you strongly mentioned something to me that was completely incorrect...and I corrected it. So far, you have not acknowledged the correction.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2015 10:06 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
In another forum, you strongly mentioned something to me that was completely incorrect...and I corrected it


I am curious what you are talking about, Frank.
FBM
 
  4  
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2015 10:15 am
Just checking in to make sure that we're all having an intelligent, respectful discussion. Coast is clear, apparently. Good to see. Cheerio. I'll pop back in in a few more weeks and see if I can figure out another way to make a sentence with "in" back-to-back. I may even try for another "cheerio," but my back's been bothering me. No promises.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2015 10:17 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
In another forum, you strongly mentioned something to me that was completely incorrect...and I corrected it


I am curious what you are talking about, Frank.


http://able2know.org/topic/265666-4#post-5876706
FBM
 
  3  
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2015 10:17 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
In another forum, you strongly mentioned something to me that was completely incorrect...and I corrected it


I am curious what you are talking about, Frank.


It may have been a discussion about one-upsmanship. Just a guess.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Sat 31 Jan, 2015 10:19 am
@Frank Apisa,
I did not paraphrase, I replied, paraphrasing involves summarising and rephrasing. I didn't do that. It a shame certain things weren't explained to you a long time ago, it would save a lot of pointless arguments.
 

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