A Call for Intelligent Respectful Discussion

you make the same mistake....intelligence and civility dont have anything to do with each other. What you are doing is imposing your bias for civility by way of false beliefs, in this case that intelligence and civility are connected(exhibit 1: the Unabomber).

WOW, that shocks me. My mind has been very much altered by what I have learned on the internet, and from the experience of arguing ideas on the internet.

I agree. It comes with the territory. We cannot change the debating style of other posters, other than perhaps by showing a good example. But when did that work?

There is also a question of free speech. Does that covers insults, legally or in principle?.. I guess yes because it's hard to delimit where insults end and start. I am sure you can find very polite ways to say i'm an idiot.

Those of us who like civil debates can still talk to one another in a civil way (and still roll in the mud with the others once in a while). I don't see what more can be done.

Sure should, being free to think that you are imbecilic asshole ( as one made up example) but not being free to say what is on my mind means that I am not very free at all. I for one am not willing to tolerate this proposed downgrade of my freedom, if it happens it will happen after much kicking and screaming from me. Your feelings are your problem not my problem, you are in charge of managing yourself. If my opinion is upsetting you it is only because you made the choice to allow it. If you dont like it then make another choice, but leave me out of it.

I will try and remember "imbecilic asshole". One of the reasons i don't do much insults is that my lexicon is quite limited in this domain.

Max' argument was a bit more subtle than insults "upsetting him". It's about insult matches crowding out the conversations of even those who don't indulge in them.

Yes, Hawkeye, I am not suggesting we take away your freedom, and I am certainly not suggesting censorship (other than voluntary self-censorship which is at times good for all of us.)

Let me ask you this question Hawykeye... at its best, what do you hope to get from Able2know? We spend countless hours here typing tens of thousands of words at each other. What are we hoping to get out of it?

Whatever we want from Able2know, what we are getting is pages upon pages of personal insults. And they are as repetitive as hell, everyone knows what you and Izzy think about each other because you have told each other on hundreds of threads.

I don't think the personal insults do you any good Hawkeye. For one thing, they make it very easy for many people to shut you off, even when the point you are making is compelling. If you are calling people "imbecilic asshole", they aren't going to listen to the argument you are making (no matter how logically valid your opinion is). Instead they are focused on the name they are going to call you back... and reasoning behind the points you are making is lost.

All I am suggesting is that if enough of us voluntarily agree to act civilly it will be better for us as a group since intelligent respectful discussion will be easier and more common. And it will be better for us individually since if we aren't name-calling... then our reason is the only thing there is to respond to.

if intelligence and civility are the main requirements for a respectful discussion i'm in big trouble


as a wise man once said, "Seacrest out"


and Seacrest, you don't have to keep telling us, most of us figured you were "out" a long time ago

Well, as Hawk pointed out, and for which there has been some agreement, A2K is a place where people often intensely dislike each other and frequently show scorn and contempt towards others...but "freedom of speech" requires that we tolerate it. Attempts to change it...laughingly described as attempts to "make it a nicer, more civil place"...are almost subversive. Anyone who doesn't like the way it is it can "lump it"...or just go somewhere else where people can pretend that kind of nonsense makes sense.

I guess all that could also be said using "America" in place of A2K.

Let's see how that would read:

America is a place where people often intensely dislike each other and frequently show scorn and contempt towards others...but "freedom of speech" requires that we tolerate it. Attempts to change it...laughingly described as attempts to "make it a nicer, more civil place"...are almost subversive. Anyone who doesn't like the way it is it can "lump it...or just go somewhere else where people can pretend that kind of nonsense makes sense.

I get what he is suggesting; I see his reasoning.

I understand why others are agreeing to.

Why make America a better, more civil, more tolerant place to live? No matter the superficial appeal, anyone suggesting anything like that is misguided.

Hummm.

Never thought of it that way.

I guess I am learning something about my fellow human also.

In fact, I guess the same thing could be said using "the planet Earth" in place of A2K or America.

But then you would have to change the last line...at least for now.

it's weird, i can't think of anyone here i dislike (come back JGoldman10 and Chjsa, all is forgiven)

and the folks who some despise, i like the most, because the exchanges that result make for wonderful cringe worthy reading

I think the question is not "should we ban speech" but "if speech is not valuable, why bother with it?" Max never suggested anyone or any word be banned. He suggested (using his free speech rights) that people self censor speech that doesn't contribute to advancing a discussion. You can call someone an ass, but other ramping up the personal animus, what does that do? I will say that IMO and despite what a lot of posters here have said, Hawkeye and Max are often the last ones to go ad hominem in a discussion. That doesn't mean they don't take aggressive positions that many will disagree with but they are rarely the first to say "you are a poopy head so your opinion means nothing".

That doesn't lessen their weird positions on most topics in which they participate, which is more important - to me, at least.

I find that in order to refute their positions, I need to sharpen my own thinking and maybe do some research. I doubt Hawk and I agree on much, but I find the threads he starts to be some of the most interesting on the board. I have gone from a general feeling on rightness on a position to a detailed understanding of it because it is hard to debate on general feelings, even strongly held ones. I don't find the provocative way he states his threads as valuable, but once you get past that, they're great topics. Those of you who have him on ignore miss out on even seeing them. If you are here to have someone challenge your sacred cows, Hawk is your guy and while we have disagreed on just about every topic, I don't recall Hawk ever calling me a name even while disagreeing with every word I post.

Agreed, Engineer.

But I support the suggestion that we could make A2K a "better" place by making it more civil...by requesting people who seem to think that calling others stupid or ignorant (or worse) in so many of their posts...to exercise some self control.

You've just done that. Has it worked? Has it ****.

"Weird position" is an awfully subjective term. But I will take it as a compliment.

I am not quite sure what you are asking me here, my good friend.

For me it has worked great. I have debated Max, Hawk, Oralloy and others who draw lots of ire here and I can't recall that any of those have flamed me personally, ever. They've crapped all over my opinions, but that's fine.

For the record, Engineer, you and I often agree. I am pretty sure I agree with you more than I do with either Hawkeye or Oralloy.

Oy!

What is this new varnish of civility covering this most barbaric environment?

From the outset Oralboy threw all sorts of personal insults at me, calling me a Nazi just because I support a free Palestine. If you say anything critical of Israel expect all sorts of opprobrium. Just criticism of Israel mind, he's quite OK with Holocaust denial.

http://static.sfdict.com/staticrep/dictaudio/B00/B0051600.mp3?clickid=318cb2a555abf0529b6bdb1fe3231395