17
   

Why did Obama snub the European leaders in Paris?

 
 
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2015 12:21 pm
Following the brutal assasinations of the editorial staff of a French newspaper in Paris by a group of Islamist fanatics, the leaders of the Western World gathered in Paris yesteday in a demonstration of solidarity in the face of the growing threat we all face from external and indigenous Islamist fanatics who oppose the social and religious freedoms and tolerance that are so central to our Western culture.

Where was President Obama? (It turns out he sent Eric Holder, perhaps to worsen the sting.)

Following 9/11 we received numerous gestures of loyalty and support from European Leaders, Including Jaques Chirac, then President of France. They didn't support our growing ambitions in Iraq, but they were united in affirming our unity in the face of such terrorist violence.

Our president couldn't bring himself to call the 2009 murder of 13 soldiers at Ft Hood by an avowed Islamist Army officer anything but euphamistic 'workplace violence'. Now he skips a unique opportunity to demonstrate our unity with traditional allies in the face of this continuing threat. This also comes in the wake of his terming the murderous ISIS terrorists a "junior varsity" and cutting off militatry aid to Egypt after its new president cracked down on the Islamic Brotherhood following it's attempt to create an Islamist state in Egypt.

Obama is not one of us. He is a alien force who has managed to delude large numbers of stupid hopeful people, however the truth is steadily unfolding. The sooner we are rid of him the better.
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Type: Question • Score: 17 • Views: 5,568 • Replies: 99

 
edgarblythe
 
  7  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2015 12:23 pm
He was too busy planning more disasters. Lots of planes to be lost, cops to be shot, oil spills, immigrants to sneak in -
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2015 01:11 pm
@georgeob1,
I don't think that the marche républicaine was about (American) politics but a homage to the victims of the attacks.
And as far as I have read about it no-one felt "snubbed". (Having watched two different French tv-stations [France2 and BFMtv] all this afternoon: the French were very pleased about Holder being there.)
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  6  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2015 01:36 pm
@georgeob1,
This should not be about name dropping or Obama bashing.

The REAL transatlantic issue as seen from France is: why are US (and more generally, anglophone) media not reprinting / showing the Charlie cartoons?

Newspapers from all over the world -- including Lebanon and Egypt -- have relayed Charlie's cartoons in support, now and in the past. Not in the US. In Canada, only francophone newspapers did so.

That's a cultural rift of some importance. From our perspective, the journalists who hide a central element of the story are betraying their trade, betraying the profession. We understand that not every media is satirical, and that these cartoons are pretty punchy, but without them one just CANNOT UNDERSTAND THE STORY.
Lustig Andrei
 
  2  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2015 02:23 pm
@Olivier5,
One reason why the Charlie cartoons have not been reprinted here is that most people would consider them highly offensive, (They're available online easily enough and have been posted on FaceBook, Twitter and elsewhere.) I will defend the magazine's right to print whatever it wants; that does not mean that I necessarily endorse their point of view. Much of Charlie's content is, alas, sadly racist.
contrex
 
  3  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2015 02:35 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
From our perspective, the journalists who hide a central element of the story are betraying their trade, betraying the profession. We understand that not every media is satirical, and that these cartoons are pretty punchy, but without them one just CANNOT UNDERSTAND THE STORY.

Very well said. I was ashamed of the Guardian for its mealy-mouthed, cowardly piece in which it said:

Quote:
...Since these are the images the gunmen wanted to stop, the surviving free press is obliged to deny the killers that victory. No other gesture can show that we refuse to be cowed by their crime. By repeating Charlie Hebdo’s action, we would demonstrate our resistance to the edict the terrorists sought to enforce on pain of death. We show that Charlie Hebdo was not alone.

There is an appealing simplicity to that stance, but it rests on faulty logic. The key point is this: support for a magazine’s inalienable right to make its own editorial judgments does not commit you to echo or amplify those judgments. Put another way, defending the right of someone to say whatever they like does not oblige you to repeat their words.


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/08/guardian-view-charlie-hebdo-show-solidarity-own-voice

There have been many occasions when I have felt, at the same time, admiration for France and its values, and shame and embarrassment over Britain's, and never more so than now.

Also, the editor of the Independent said he "wanted" to publish the cartoons on the front page but decided it was "too risky". That is at least honest - "I wanted to be brave but realised I am a coward".

http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/jan/08/charlie-hebdo-muhammad-cartoons-independent-amol-rajan



contrex
 
  5  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2015 02:37 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Lustig Andrei wrote:
Much of Charlie's content is, alas, sadly racist.

I would not say so; they satirise everybody, without fear or favour. They are not Der Stürmer.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2015 03:02 pm
@contrex,
http://i59.tinypic.com/2med3dg.jpg

Quote:
In 1970 came the famous moment of Charlie's creation. Two dramatic events were dominating the news: a terrible fire at a discotheque which killed more than 100 people; and the death of former President Gen Charles de Gaulle.

Hara-Kiri led its edition with a headline mocking the general's death: "Bal tragique a Colombey - un mort", meaning "Tragic dance at Colombey [de Gaulle's home] - one dead."

The subsequent scandal led to Hara-Kiri being banned. Its journalists promptly responded by setting up a new weekly - Charlie Hebdo.
Source


The most accurate and literal evocation of Charlie's worldview in the recent years, in my opinion, is shown by this cover:

http://i61.tinypic.com/29uua1t.jpg
"Charlie Hebo must be veiled"
0 Replies
 
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2015 03:05 pm
@contrex,
contrex wrote:

Lustig Andrei wrote:
Much of Charlie's content is, alas, sadly racist.

I would not say so; they satirise everybody, without fear or favour. They are not Der Stürmer.


Update: in 2008 the magazine fired a journalist after he refused to apologise for remarks said to be antisemitic in a column he wrote.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/aug/03/france.pressandpublishing
Butrflynet
 
  2  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2015 03:12 pm
http://qz.com/324621/these-are-the-biggest-hypocrites-celebrating-free-speech-today-in-paris/

These are the biggest hypocrites celebrating free speech today in Paris

But as Daniel Wickham points out (as amplified by the journalist Glenn Greenwald), many of the 40 leaders attending the rally in Paris don’t have the best record of defending the principle of free speech so viciously attacked earlier this week:

Wickham, a student at the London School of Economics, lists 20 leaders attending on his Twitter feed and some of their crimes. Here, we’ve highlighted some of the worst offenders.


Foreign minister Sameh Shoukry, Egypt

Three al-Jazeera journalists—Peter Greste, Mohamed Fahmy and Baher Mohamed—were jailed for seven years for spreading false news and supporting the now-banned group, the Muslim Brotherhood. The trio had denied the charges. On New Year’s Day, the country’s top court ordered a retrial.

Reporters Without Borders ranks Egypt as second in the world for the number of journalists arrested, including this photojournalist who describes his 16 months behind bars as an “endless nightmare.”

Prime minister Ahmet Davutoğlu, Turkey

Turkey held almost 50 journalists in jail two years ago. There are seven journalists in jail at the moment, mainly for producing propaganda for outlawed political parties.

Prime minister David Cameron, UK

After the Guardian published files leaked by Edward Snowden on spying and cyber-surveillance by the US National Security Agency and its British counterpart GCHQ, cabinet secretary Jeremy Heywood told Guardian editor Alan Rusbridger: “We can do this nicely or we can go to law.” He added: “A lot of people in government think you should be closed down.” The government destroyed the hard drives of some of the files and later detained Greenwald’s partner at Heathrow and questioned him under the Terrorism Act.

King Abdullah, Jordan

Mudar Zahran, a Palestinian writer for The Jerusalem Post, was sentenced to as much as 15 years in jail with hard labor for writing about the king’s dependence on Israel for power. He told the the paper he was charged with “inciting hatred and attacking Jordan’s image and the image of its one nation.” He spoke from the UK, where he has been granted asylum.

Prime minister Enda Kenny, Ireland

Perhaps most surprising of all in these circumstances, Ireland has had “blasphemy” as a criminal offense on its books since 2009. Already one Muslim has threatened legal action against any Irish publication that reprints Charlie Hebdo’s front-page depiction of the Prophet Muhammad. Blasphemy is punishable with a fine of up to €25,000 ($29,500), but there are plans to hold a referendum to abolish it.

Blasphemy is defined by the Irish as “publishing or uttering matter that is grossly abusive or insulting in relation to matters sacred by any religion.” It doesn’t sound like the drafters of this law would have much time for the people at Charlie Hebdo.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2015 03:21 pm
@Butrflynet,
Switzerland, Austria and Germany have kind of "blaspheme paragraphs" in their criminal codes, Defamation of religions, religious and ideological associations ... " in a manner that is capable of disturbing the public peace".
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2015 03:36 pm
@contrex,
The Guardian: Charlie Hebdo cartoons: press strives to balance freedom and responsibility
Quote:
[...]
Press freedom has never been taken to mean that we can publish anything we like. Legal constraints aside, editors have always taken account of society’s wider sensibilities in deciding where to draw the line. When it comes to physical threats, they also have to show concern for their staff. It was a point well made by the Independent’s editor, Amol Rajan, who said he wished he could, in time-honoured fashion, have published. But, out of duty to his staff, his self-censorship had been necessary to “balance principle with pragmatism”.

There was another balancing act, however, which gets to the heart of this dilemma. Should British editors ever carry material, whatever the circumstances, that they would not normally publish? At a “Je suis Charlie” seminar staged by the Guardian last Thursday, the paper’s editor, Alan Rusbridger, explained there were “offensive” Charlie Hebdo cartoons “that the Guardian would never in the normal run of events publish”. It was all very well to defend the magazine’s right to exercise its freedom and right to offend – including what Rusbridger called its “ethos and values” – but that could not be the defining issue for another publication.
[...]


I do think this to be honest. At least more honest than to condemn the magazine one week and use it now as cheap promotion for some nationalistic own ideas ... like it's done by the FN or the German "anti-Islam movement" PEGIDA. (At an FN demonstration today, some supporters shouted: "On the stake with journalists and bearded men!")
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  4  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2015 03:56 pm
@contrex,
Exactly. They fired Siné (himself a good cartoonist who went on to found Siné Hebdo) because there was a hint of antisemitism in one of his columns. I don't remember the precise words but they were indeed nasty. Siné was a historic team member so he was furious but they were merciless. Charlie Hebdo was and remains a proud anti-racist newspaper. To call it racist is at best misinformed, at worse malevolent.
Lordyaswas
 
  4  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2015 04:24 pm
Getting back to the thread subject, I think that Obama not being there was a good thing.
He would have been the focus of attention for the Press, and this in my mind was all about the world's response, and not just about the USA.

Obama would have been a massive distraction. Who did he have meetings with? Who's hand did he shake? That sort of thing.

As it turned out, Paris and France did themselves proud, showing the world that it will not be cowed.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2015 04:48 pm
@Butrflynet,
This will tangent a bit, but bear with me -


Good selection, thank you for it.

This is the one that resonates most with me,

"Blasphemy is defined by the Irish as “publishing or uttering matter that is grossly abusive or insulting in relation to matters sacred by any religion.” It doesn’t sound like the drafters of this law would have much time for the people at Charlie Hebdo."

I would have made some kind of runner up as the most religious person on earth until around when I turned eighteen through twenty four, but also in rare instances before that; anyway, I started a turn, a turn that was rickety, confused, interesting, freeing, ending in one last view that "I don't believe this".

Since I remember my intense self gathering in religion, I'm not interested in poking people who don't don't share my now longtime atheism.

On the other hand, I'm fine with jostling attitudes, and with harsh attitudes, the more jostling, the better.

Quietude is not great either. There have been past instances on that.

To the extent financial worries and protection of employees matters - and it does, this is a giant question - me, who doesn't even like taunting, mainly as not helpful, still wants taunting and questioning to be out there.


One thing I learned about myself, is that when a friend/colleague made some sharp remark against what ever I was talking about, I'd dig in.

Some of my changes of opinion happened from those occasions. Those were seeds, and in some cases my opinion moved.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2015 04:50 pm
On Obama and George's first post - I took him as sort of hysteric, not a usual adjective by me, for him. I'll revisit that later.
0 Replies
 
contrex
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2015 04:50 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
Exactly. They fired Siné (himself a good cartoonist who went on to found Siné Hebdo) because there was a hint of antisemitism in one of his columns. I don't remember the precise words but they were indeed nasty.

He referred to Jean Sarkozy, (fils de papa). Siné said (without evidence, apparently) that Sarko jr was planning to convert to Judaism before marrying the "juive, et héritière" Jessica Sebaoun-Darty, (yes, them, la famille eléctromenager). Siné said "'He'll go a long way in life, this lad!" (« Il fera du chemin dans la vie, ce petit ! »). Not the first time he was in trouble for propos antisemites. However in Nov 2010 Siné was awarded 40 000 euros damages against the CH publishers, increased to 90 000 euros on appeal in Dec 2012.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2015 05:11 pm
I dont think that Obama is in favor of media outlets that in his view spread hate, or of the people who support them. He will say the right words about free speech when forced to do so, but he does not believe them.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2015 05:16 pm
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Charlie Hebdo was and remains a proud anti-racist newspaper. To call it racist is at best misinformed, at worse malevolent.

Yes, but we Americans are by and large not very well informed, or bright. I have no doubt but that the majority of Americans do not support the publishing of such matterial, largely on our opinions that it is racist and spreads hate. Obama going would have been a political problem for him at home with his base, as it is largely the American left that supports suppression of speech that does not advance their utopian dreams.
glitterbag
 
  2  
Reply Sun 11 Jan, 2015 07:28 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Charlie Hebdo was and remains a proud anti-racist newspaper. To call it racist is at best misinformed, at worse malevolent.

Yes, but we Americans are by and large not very well informed, or bright. I have no doubt but that the majority of Americans do not support the publishing of such matterial, largely on our opinions that it is racist and spreads hate. Obama going would have been a political problem for him at home with his base, as it is largely the American left that supports suppression of speech that does not advance their utopian dreams.


Please don't attempt to make all American seem to be as uninformed as you. I agree that there are too many lazy, stupid people but when I think of lazy intellect and stupid, I see you as the poster boy.
 

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