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Being Lesbian in Chile

 
 
Diane
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 07:24 am
No bunny, the baster is used on cows. Turkeys, intelligent creatures that they are, sell them with a very high mark-up.
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 09:08 am
I know a number of gay couples who have children. If only the hetros were as good a parents.

One choice does not extend to another choice, just like the choice to be Rebulican does not necessitate that they must choose to be mean spirited and hateful.........
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L R R Hood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 09:48 am
I never said anything about animals Smile
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 10:17 am
People are animals, LLR.
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Sam1951
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 11:05 am
I have yet to see one post on this thread that states clearly why GLBT people, either as individuals or as couples should not raise children.
The reason, there is none. That's right there is no reason why GLBTs should not raise children.
Yet in our closed minded petty society, because I don't like (insert derogatory epithet), is reason enough.
Natural, unnatural, choice or genes makes no difference, I would rather see a Flaming Queen, who is a good, loving, caring person raise a child, than have that child live with a negligent, self-centered heterosexual couple.
Children need hugs, not cash. Children need someone willing and able to talk honestly about human sexuality, about emotions and about responsibility. They do not need to be taught guilt and shame. It makes no difference what a persons sexual preference is, are they a good parent, that is what counts. Can they do the job of teaching a child the things they need to be an adult.
One last thing on the natural/unnatural argument. What is natural about our society? Precious little! We synthesize or treat everything we use. Is that natural? I don't think so!

Sam

PS: Humans are primates, mammals and vertebrates, just like anteaters and zebras.
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L R R Hood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 12:17 pm
I didn't realise this was a thread about who would make good parents--period, oh well.

You all are really nit-picky Very Happy
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 12:22 pm
Personally I would pay a cover charge for lesbian in hot chile wrestling and.....oh...never mind....
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L R R Hood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 12:30 pm
LOL
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Sam1951
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 12:51 pm
Nit-picky?

This thread started because a GLBT woman in Chile is being denied custody of her children. The Chilean courts are doing this because she is GLBT.
The question is should GLBT people raise children.
23 members voted yes
5 members voted no
None of those voting no have given any reason for their vote other than the "uck" factor.

The uck factor:
Uck = I find that disgusting, nasty, whatever. So uck is a personal dislike of something or someone for no reason other than I don't like it/them. That's ok but to deny people parental rights because you find them disgusting is truly questionable.
Allow me to present an example: All forms of dancing are lewd. I find dancing to be disgusting and people who dance in public or private are bad people. Any one who enjoy watching dance are just as bad as the dancers. As bad people they should not be allowed to have custody of children. (What a crock of s**t)
Dancing is not disgusting, it can be everything from athletic to enchanting. Being GLBT is not disgusting just different. If it is too different for you don't participate but do not condemn either. Wrong is not an alternate spelling for different.

Now I ask, most respectfully, please give a good reason why GLBT people should not raise children.


Sam
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L R R Hood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 01:38 pm
I can only speak from my personal experience, but I'm going to explain why I voted no. Keep in mind, I'm sharing my opinion here... I'm not trying to control the world-- so think a moment before you attack me for my own personal experiences and observations.

I have known quite a few homosexuals, and every single one of them is extremely self-centered, and basically selfish. They all seemed to have some kind of a problem tolerating heterosexual married couples (as homosexual parents would definately be forced to do). There is more to raising a child than simply raising a child. There are other parents to deal with, babysitters, coaches, teachers, ... basically all other adults that have anything to do with children and their parents.

Seeing how homosexuals deal with opinions different to their own, I don't think the ones I have known would set much of an example for their children on how to get along in the real world. You can't simply call names and throw out quotes. Sometimes you have to agree to disagree, or just move on. Until I see a homosexual handling themself in a respectful manner in a discussion, I will not think they would be suitable parents.

I know a lot of heterosexuals who would not make good parents either... but they wouldn't add any complications or unnecessary hardships to a child's social education as homosexual parents would. Growing up is hard enough, for everyone, without extra stress than the child barely understands.
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Broadslad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 02:06 pm
I am undeniably a young homosexual male (I shall be 20 in August 2004) and had gradually become aware of my dawning sexuality from as early as I can remember.....well, from an age when I was old enough to understand my feelings towards members of my own sex. I get incensed when I hear or read comments that sexuality is a matter of choice....and that a conscious decision is made to "become gay" for whatever reason, as if it is like following some sort of fashion trend. That is not only completely untrue but people who hold this opinion are either totally lacking in understanding or merely do not want to understand. That is what homophobia is all about. No sane person would "choose" to become gay only to be subjected to homophobic abuse. I am fortunate in that most people no longer hold such opinions (I can only speak for the UK where I live) and I am very happy with the way I am. That means I am happy with the way nature has decided I should be, and not happy with any choice I made! I have no problem, but some people in society do.
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Sam1951
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 02:54 pm
Quote:
my own personal experiences and observations.

I have known quite a few homosexuals, and every single one of them is extremely self-centered, and basically selfish. They all seemed to have some kind of a problem tolerating heterosexual married couples (as homosexual parents would definately be forced to do).


Ok, I can understand your point of view. In fact, don't go into shock, I too know quite a few GLBTs that are in danger of becoming black holes because they are so self-centered. The only thing stopping them is lack of mass. There are lots of heterosexuals that are just the same. I don't see totally self-absorbed people making good parents.
I also agree that there are lots of GLBTs who loath "straights". Why? Well there can be a variety of reasons, some valid some not. In my experience intolerance begets intolerance. You hate me therefore I hate you, not a good reason but, we can see it every day. It takes a special kind of "guts" to face down intolerance and get the intolerant individual or group to see who you really are. Not everyone can do this successfully.

Quote:
There is more to raising a child than simply raising a child. There are other parents to deal with, babysitters, coaches, teachers, ... basically all other adults that have anything to do with children and their parents


Here we have a situation that calls for tact and diplomacy. You have to focus on the real issue, the child. This is much easier if the other parents etc can understand that you all have the same goal; helping children to become the best adults possible.


Quote:
Seeing how homosexuals deal with opinions different to their own, I don't think the ones I have known would set much of an example for their children on how to get along in the real world. You can't simply call names and throw out quotes. Sometimes you have to agree to disagree, or just move on. Until I see a homosexual handling themselves in a respectful manner in a discussion, I will not think they would be suitable parents


How am I doing so far? I prefer facts over emotionally based arguments. I also have a problem with labeling all members of a group as something. John Wayne Gacey was a closet gay and a murderer. That does not mean that all closet gays are murderers. It's too bad that you have not run into some of the GLBTs I know. You might like them.

My partner is trans male to female, I was born female but in attitude and activity I am more male, a lesbian if you will. I prefer the title wyoptila, it's what the Lakota call me.

[/quote]I know a lot of heterosexuals who would not make good parents either... but they wouldn't add any complications or unnecessary hardships to a child's social education as homosexual parents would. Growing up is hard enough, for everyone, without extra stress than the child barely understands.[/quote]

Yes and no, complications pop up all over the place. Thats right, hetro parents come with their own set of complications, dad drinks, mom has PMS from hell, my parents refuse to talk to your parents because... on and on. Sure GLBT parents come with personal baggage too, a lot of the same baggage as hetros. What I want to say is that it's how you deal with it that counts. We can choose to go with society when it's wrong or we can say "No that is not right." and work for change.

This country has made great advances in recognizing social inequality and working to change it to equality for all. We have abolished slavery, women have the right to vote, Native Americans can openly practice their Ceremonies, people of color can marry whites, all wonderful steps to truly becoming the country of freedom and equality we claim the USA to be. Until every human being is equal, even the petty self-centered ones the work is not finished.

I thank you for stating the reasons for you opinions. Now I understand and understanding is always good. All I ask is that, when you see a self-absorbed GLBT person, please see them as an individual not as an example of every other GLBT. We are just people and like all people we are all different.
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Sam1951
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 02:59 pm
Hi Broadslad,

Thanks for joining a2k and for your post. When it feels right it usually is. Being out is so much better than being in the closet. I look froward to your future posts.

All my best

Sam
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L R R Hood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 03:59 pm
Sam... You are resonding with statements that I clearly explained in my post:

I was referring to all of the homosexuals that I have met... that's all I can speak for. They all had the qualities I mentioned, and as I stated... if I meet one who doesn't fall in that self-centered and irrational category, I'll change my view.

Tact and diplomacy are exactly what I think is lacking. You DO need to focus on the child, but you have to keep in mind that the child will also be focusing on you.

As I stated, yet again, I know heterosexual parents have their own complications... I just don't see the need in adding to those.

So you seem to be skimming my posts instead of reading and thinking about them. Do you start typing before you're finished reading?

I have known 23 homosexual people... not just 1.
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Sam1951
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 04:40 pm
LRR

You may want to look at my post regarding you post. Ok?

For some reason all of the things I wrote showed up as quotes and all of your quotes did not. Drat!
Anyway, I fixed it so the whole post may make sense now.

As to having read your post, yes I did several times.

What I got out of it is:
1) All of the homosexuals you know are self-centered. (Are they all male?)
2) Many of them do not care for heterosexual couples.
3) Homosexual couples may have more problems relating to other adults and children who interact with their children.

Point 1) Yes many people are self-centered. I really feel bad that all of the homosexuals you know appear to be self-centered. I know many GLBTs that are not. This is not a right/wrong situation. We know different people, that's all.

Point 2) I have heard the same rhetoric from quite a few GLBTs. They call heterosexuals unflattering names and degrade them. I don't neither does my partner, Billie. On the other hand, how often have you heard heterosexuals, perhaps yourself included, refer to GLBTs in a similar way?

Point 3) You are absolutely correct, GLBT couples or singles will probably encounter more problems interacting with teachers, etc. The same was and still is true for mixed race couples. The expression, That which does not kill me makes me stronger." comes to mind.
Billie and I travel between six and ten thousand miles every year. We meet people from all over the world and usually they tell us all about themselves. Many of these people have had to deal with prejudice during their lives. This seems to have one of two effects, either they are non-judgmental and open minded or they have their own set of prejudices against those who are prejudiced towards them. I see the former as rising above the situation. The latter is to me sinking to the same level as those who were prejudiced agains them.

At the end of my post I asked you, in very polite terms, not to assume that all homosexuals are like those you know.

Just an FYI: My partner is male to female transgender. In our society I am considered to be a lesbian. Do you think I am self-centered?


Sam
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L R R Hood
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 05:03 pm
I understood all of that already.
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Sam1951
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 05:28 pm
LRR

And?


Sam
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 05:31 pm
Over the past 30+ years that I've been aware of having GBLT people in my circles of friends, I've found them to be as variable as any other 'group' in most ways. Where I do find them to be very different, is that if they have fought to have children in their lives, they are the most extraordinary parents. They have thought about why they want to be parents, they have explained that desire to be good parents to many people, they are truly better parents than most.

My GBLT friends and acquaintances are simply a subset of my overall circle, and reflect all the same good and bad and dramatic and boring and sweet and ironic characteristics. LRR - if all of GBLT people you meet are the same, and are all as awful as you suggest (do you really number the GBLT people you are acquainted with, BTW ? ), you might want to generally reconsider the people you spend time with.




<edit to change the number of years - i'm not really over 300>
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Sam1951
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 05:37 pm
ehBeth,

Thank you.


Sam
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 05:48 pm
(now if i hadn't been so over-wrought, and put my age as 300+ ...)





I did that for me, Sam. I value my friendships very highly.
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