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An Intellectuals appraisal of Reagans legacy

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2004 09:40 am
Well it's no secret that I'm conservative, but I have great admiration and respect for those liberals who know why they are liberal and can articulate their rationale for holding a conviction/opinion on whatever issue.

I can't respect the convictions of those, either conservative or liberal, who have nothing to contribute other than to bash those who hold opposing convictions.

I support a return to civility and mutual respect. In the past that served the country well to achieve compromise and keep us moving forward. I think it would work still.

And I enjoy being on the same side of the fence with you too Doglover. I don't expect us to agree on a lot. But it feels good to agree on what we can.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2004 09:49 am
Quote:

REAGAN'S SHAMEFUL LEGACY

Tue Jun 8, 8:02 PM ET

By Ted Rall

Mourn for Us, Not the Proto-Bush

NEW YORK--For a few weeks, it became routine. I heard them dragging luggage down the hall. They paused in a little lounge near the dormitory elevator to bid farewell to people they'd met during their single semester. Those I knew knocked on my door. "What are you going to do?" I asked. "Where are you going to go?" A shrug. They were eighteen years old and their bright futures had evaporated. They had worked hard in junior and senior high school, harder than most, but none of that mattered now. President Reagan, explained the form letters from the Office of Financial Aid, had slashed the federal education budget. Which is why the same grim tableau of shattered hopes and dreams was playing itself out across the country. Colleges and universities were evicting their best and brightest, straight A students, stripping them of scholarships. Some transferred to less-expensive community colleges; others dropped into the low-wage workforce. Now, nearly a quarter century later, they are still less financially secure and less educated than they should have been. Our nation is poorer for having denied them their potential.


They were by no means the hardest-hit victims of Reaganism. Reagan's quack economists trashed scholarships and turned welfare recipients into homeless people and refused to do anything about the AIDS (news - web sites) epidemic, all so they could fund extravagant tax cuts for a tiny sliver of the ultra rich. Their supply-side sales pitch, that the rich would buy so much stuff from everybody else that the economy would boom and government coffers would fill up, never panned out. The Reagan boom lasted just three years and created only low-wage jobs. When the '80s were over, we were buried in the depths of recession and a trillion bucks in debt. Poverty grew, cities decayed, crime rose. It took over a decade to dig out.


Reagan's defenders, people who don't know the facts or choose to ignore them, claim that "everybody" admired Reagan's ebullient personality even if some disagreed with his politics. That, like the Gipper's tall tales about welfare queens and "homeless by choice" urban campers, is a lie. Millions of Americans cringed at Reagan's simplistic rhetoric, were terrified that his anti-Soviet "evil empire" posturing would provoke World War III, and thought that his appeal to selfishness and greed--a bastardized blend of Adam Smith and Ayn Rand--brought out the worst in us. We rolled our eyes when Reagan quipped "There you go again"; what the hell did that mean? Given that he made flying a living hell (by firing the air traffic controllers and regulating the airlines), I'm not the only one who refuses to call Washington National Airport by its new name. His clown-like dyed hair and rouged cheeks disgusted us. We hated him during the dark days he made so hideous, and, with all due respect, we hate him still.


Not everybody buys the myth that Reagan won the Cold War by demanding that Mikhail Gorbachev "tear down this [Berlin] wall" or bankrupting the Soviet Union via the arms race--Zbigniew Brezinski's plot to "draw the Russians into the Afghan trap" by funding the mujahedeen, Chernobyl and covert U.S. schemes to destabilize the ruble had more to do with the end of the USSR. Gangsterism replaced the ossified cult of the state, millions of Russians were reduced to paupers, revived radical Islamism in Central Asia and eliminated our sole major ideological and military rival. That increased our arrogance and insularity, left us in charge of the world and to blame for everything, paving the road to 9/11. (Reagan even armed the attacks' future perpetrators.) Anyway, the Cold War isn't over. In which direction do you think those old ICBMs point today?


The lionizers are correct about one thing: Reagan was one of our most influential presidents since FDR, whose New Deal safety net he carefully disassembled. He pioneered policies now being implemented by George W. Bush: trickle down economics, corporate deregulation, radicalizing the courts, slithering around inconvenient laws and international treaties. On the domestic front, he unraveled America's century-old social contract. What the poor needed was a kick in the ass, not a handout, said a president whose wealthy patrons bought him a house and put clothes on his wife Nancy. National parks were to be exploited for timber and oil, not protected. The federal tax code, originally conceived to redistribute wealth from top to bottom, was "reformed" to eradicate social justice.


Bush also models his approach to foreign policy on that of the original Teflon President. Reagan elevated unjustifiable military action to an art. In 1983, anxious to look tough after cutting and running from Lebanon, Reagan sent marines to topple the Marxist government of Grenada. His pretext for invading this Caribbean island was the urgent plight of 500 medical students supposedly besieged by rampaging mobs. But when they arrived at the airport in the United States, the quizzical young men and women told reporters they were confused, never having felt endangered or seen any unrest.


In a bizarre 1985 effort to free a few American hostages being held in Lebanon, Reagan authorized the sale of 107 tons of anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles to Iran, at the time one of our staunchest enemies, with the proceeds to be used to fund rightist death squads in Nicaragua--something Congress had expressly forbidden him to do. Evidence strongly suggests that Iran-Contra was at least his second dirty deal with Islamic Iran, the first being the October Surprise, which delayed the release of the Iranian embassy hostages until after the 1980 election was over. Ronald Reagan (news - web sites) eventually admitted to "trading arms for hostages," yet avoided prosecution for treason and the death penalty.


Reagan, like Bush 43, technically served in the military yet studiously avoided combat. Both men were physically robust, intellectually inadequate, poorly traveled former governors renowned for stabbing friends on the back--Reagan when he named names during McCarthyism. Both appointed former generals as secretaries of state and enemies of the environment to head the Department of the Interior. Both refused to read detailed briefings, worked short hours, behaved erratically in public appearances, ducked questions about sordid pasts, and relied on Christianist (the radical right equivalent of Islamist) depictions of foes as "evil" and America, invariably as embodied by himself and the Republicans, as "good." Based on intelligence as phony as that floated to justify the war against Iraq (news - web sites), Reagan bombed Muslim Libya.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2004 09:59 am
doglover wrote:
It is a sad commentary that some small minded people want to deny those who are mourning the loss of someone they consider a great leader and statesman the opportunity to express their loss.


Who's denying you the opportunity to express your loss, doglover? <curious>

Day Reagan died, there was a beautiful thread here, with even many liberals posting their respects. Many posters expressed their loss. Now, after a couple of days non-stop hagiography, some people are getting fed up with the media saturation. But I would assume that nobody told you that you shouldnt have the chance to express your feelings about it? I mean, if there was anyone who did, he was an ass - but I haven't seen one single poster here, at least, telling someone else, oh, you shouldnt have been allowed to say you were sad!

What I do see now, eg in Fox's post above, is people saying that noone should "recount the man's sins" at this time. I find that strange. No, not "during the funeral", of course - its not like you should go to the graveyard with a banner saying "Reagan was a murderer". But isn't that what editorials upon important people's deaths do? They weigh someone's contribution to history, point out all the right things he did, and point out the flaws as well?

I don't think the standard for editors, politicians and other important public figures is to say nothing remotely bad about the guy. They just have to keep it respectful. If you're a Democratic Congressman and you're commemorating what Reagan meant to you, I dont think its disrespectful to mention the deficit ("on that, I thought he was wrong and I think he did harm") as well as the Cold War victory.

As far as us here on the bulletin boards are concerned ... <shrugs>. We get to speak our mind. Calling names to me is disrespectful and just stupid - and as for Fox's question whether any republicans/conservatives would do so, you can find some horrifying examples on the freerepublic boards from when Wellstone died - or compare what they wrote about that Wisconsis woman who left her inheritance to fight Bush. Very yukky. But arguing here on the board why, to us as individual citizens, the guy was always bad news - <shrugs>
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2004 10:21 am
I will concede there are some conservatives /Republicans who have equally poor taste and who are equally stupid and insensitive as some liberals are. I have little respect for those. In defense of many comments re the Wellstone funeral, however, you must admit that many Democrats used it as a forum to bash George Bush and/or conservatives/Republicans in general. That made it more fair game.

I don't see anyone using Reagan's funeral as a forum to bash Kerry or liberals/Democrats in general.


That you guys would get 'fed up' that one of 'ours' is being praised however, puts you in rather dubious company don't you think? Why should it bother you? Why not read a good book until after the funeral. Then let it fly.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2004 10:24 am
I'm just tired of turning on the news/cnn/able2know and seeing nothing but reagan, reagan, reagan....

I mean, even though I don't agree with pretty much anything the guy did I respect the fact that he was prez. for a long time. But after a while, after so much media saturation, I'm tired of hearing about all the good things he did and ignoring all the bad things.

If people were realistic about his life it would be different. I never thought I would see Reagan made out to be a saint by CNN....

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2004 10:30 am
I was watching the "all-Reagan, all the time" news on CNN yesterday. It's starting to turn into the "Follow the dead body" show. Put some news on, for god's sake!

But on the other hand, how could it be any different? He was a veeeerrrry popular person, for a lot of people, whether the far left likes it or not.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2004 10:40 am
Foxfyre wrote:
I don't see anyone using Reagan's funeral as a forum to bash Kerry or liberals/Democrats in general.

I didn't watch much of the coverage of the ceremonies, since I was so pissed that the local Fox affiliate pre-empted reruns of "The Simpsons." But I did catch some of the opening remarks of Sen. Ted Stevens (R-Alaska), the president pro tem of the Senate. I was quite surprised when he stated:
    WHEN RONALD REAGAN WAS SWORN IN AS OUR 40TH PRESIDENT, THIS NATION WAS GRIPPED BY A POWERFUL MALAISE, INFLATION AND UNEMPLOYMENT WERE SOARING, AND THE SOVIET UNION WAS WINNING THE COLD WAR.
(The entire text of his remarks can be found here)

It's particularly ironic when a Republican states that the country was "gripped by a powerful malaise" before Reagan took office, since that "malaise" diagnosis had been made first by Jimmy Carter during a televised address to the nation in July 1979. At the time, however, Republicans roundly criticized Carter for that remark, claiming that the country was "malaise" free.

Yet it now appears that there was indeed a malaise after all, and that Reagan was the cure. Certainly the octagenarian Stevens is old enough to recall that his party was in "malaise-denial" during the Carter presidency: why, all of a sudden, has he joined the "pro-malaise" camp?

Could it be that he is trying to score some cheap political points? Could it be that Stevens is attempting to slander the Carter administration (and, by extension, the entire Democratic party) as being soft on Communism, weak on the economy, and full of "malaise?" In short, was Stevens using the forum of the Reagan funeral to bash liberals/Democrats in general? I'll leave that for others to ponder.
0 Replies
 
BillW
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2004 10:43 am
Especially, since it had started about 9 years earlier - hmmmmmmmm! Guess it was a foreshadowing of Carter Question
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2004 10:48 am
About the reagan all the time, I just simply turned all my tv's off. First time I done that in a long time. Man is it quiet here at my house.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2004 10:57 am
Thank you Revel. With that you can be listed as a compassionate liberal. I wish you had more company.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2004 10:58 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Well it's no secret that I'm conservative, but I have great admiration and respect for those liberals who know why they are liberal and can articulate their rationale for holding a conviction/opinion on whatever issue.

I can't respect the convictions of those, either conservative or liberal, who have nothing to contribute other than to bash those who hold opposing convictions.

I support a return to civility and mutual respect. In the past that served the country well to achieve compromise and keep us moving forward. I think it would work still..

Give me a break Foxfyre. In the very second post of this thread, you wrote two sentences, with the second starting the negativity.
Foxfyre wrote:
And this in a nutshell is why he is hands down my favorite president ever. Unfortunately the liberal media are not teaching how he did it, because they still largely do not want to believe he did.

You stir the pot and then complain because the thread does not resemble a mutual admiration society discussion.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2004 11:10 am
Why don't we have two threads? One for Reagan and one to decide who is compassionate and who's hate filled whatever?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2004 11:11 am
So haven't most of the liberals proved I was right Mesquite? That's the way it looks to me.

I'll tell you this. When Clinton passes there will be similar coverage by the media and this time the alphabet channels will not be at all reticent or worried about giving too much coverage and won't care much about the ratings. And that will be fine. If the sizable chunk of Americans who seemed to think he was wonderful still do, the ratings will hold up enough that you will be able to enjoy the several days in which he is honored.

And though the conservatives will have every bit as much, if not more, ammunition to criticize him presume to do so during that time, I will stand shoulder to shoulder with you to condemn any smear tactics during a time the nation should be given to remember and mourn.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2004 11:22 am
I am not aware of any liberals proving that you are right, Foxfyre. Laughing
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2004 11:23 am
Foxfyre wrote:
I don't see anyone using Reagan's funeral as a forum to bash Kerry or liberals/Democrats in general.

Not to bash Kerry (though Joe makes a couple of good points) - but as a political forum of self-congratulation, yes. Count me in as one who thinks thats in bad taste when it comes to funerals, whether its Wellstone's or Reagan's.

Foxfyre wrote:
That you guys would get 'fed up' that one of 'ours' is being praised however, puts you in rather dubious company don't you think?

There's been no shortage of conservatives posting complaints about the "media saturation" on Abu G. and so on. As viewers, it is up to us to, first, grumble, then, speak up, if we think the proportions are being lost out of sight.

Those who think it is perfectly appropriate for the Reagan funeral to be broadcast in full and for many commemorations to appear, but that a full-week political show is in bad taste - and represents a loss of our sense of proportions re: "world news" - do not need to be filled with dubious hatred to think so. I had the same response to the wall-to-wall coverage about Princess Diana's dead. It reeked of exploitation. This one is starting to reek of political exploitation.

Foxfyre wrote:
Why should it bother you? Why not read a good book until after the funeral.

Because I happen to be concerned about what happens in the world, and I'm a bit worried that the rest of the world will not just politely refrain from doing anything relevant, in the meantime?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2004 11:29 am
Okay the 'read a good book' thing was over the top. Smile

And I'll concede that I will get tired of days of non-stop praise for Clinton when he passes assuming I outlive him. And I also won't turn off the radio or TV for fear of missing something important.

But I won't criticize him or smear him while those who loved him mourn his passing. And I won't stand by quietly if others do.
0 Replies
 
doglover
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2004 11:34 am
nimh wrote:
doglover wrote:
It is a sad commentary that some small minded people want to deny those who are mourning the loss of someone they consider a great leader and statesman the opportunity to express their loss.


Who's denying you the opportunity to express your loss, doglover? <curious>


The people who don't like Reagan would like to limit the amount of coverage his life and funeral are getting on TV. Thank goodness they aren't in charge of what the major networks and cable TV stations air. The man died less than a week ago and already some people want the coverage to stop! LOL

For those who are tired of hearing about RR, switch the channel to something else. You have several hundred to choose from.

0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2004 11:38 am
Well, not if I want to watch news, Doglover. Believe it or not there ARE other things going on in the world besides the death of Reagan's body.

I don't want the coverage to stop. I think it's important. But it really could be tempered with some actual news, for those of us who understand that the man died and don't need to see tribute after tribute to this shining saint of a man.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2004 11:39 am
doglover wrote:
The man died less than a week ago and already some people want the coverage to stop! LOL

For those who are tired of hearing about RR, switch the channel to something else. You have several hundred to choose from.

[/color]


If I could find one that was showing some actual news, I'd do that. It's not the coverage that I want to stop. It's the constant coverage. And I liked Reagan, personally.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Jun, 2004 11:44 am
So, turn the TV off, turn the computer off and go outside and play. Then you won't need to deal with the coverage.
0 Replies
 
 

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