23
   

Who doesn't think American voters are stupid?

 
 
Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Nov, 2014 05:51 pm
@cicerone imposter,
You offered nothing on the article. Here I'll even provide you with your own words.

Quote:
@Baldimo,
CLUE: It's not about apples and orange, but about 'nut' like you! LOL

Please explain this "apples and oranges" comparison about the article I posted.
Since you're a 'nut' that would be impossible.

@Baldimo,
Why are you complaining about illegal immigration when the GOP had control of Washington DC during some of those years?

It seems the GOP is good at ignoring problems when they're in office, then cry bloody murder when a liberal president tries to do something about this long standing issue.


Where is the "opinion" on the article I posted?
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Nov, 2014 08:16 pm
@Baldimo,
Quote:
You know what he means when he talks about apples vs oranges?


No, was replying to this:

Quote:
They're now threatening Obama with 'non-cooperation' on future legislation. This is just too funny to contemplate.


There is no need to offer new threats, it's what they have been doing since Obama became President.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 17 Nov, 2014 08:19 pm
@revelette2,
BINGO! You win the cupie doll. Mr. Green

"Too funny to contemplate."
0 Replies
 
woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2014 08:43 am
@Frank Apisa,
I think it is the absolute arrogance of the elitist snobs that irritated me the most. I agree with you that most American voters have a clear understanding in what they believe and are not "stupid".

Clearly, it is now confirmed that the Obama administration had to lie and deceive the public and the Congress in order to push through ACA. Many citizens as well as many in the House and Senate knew it was a lie when it was happening.

I will argue the stupidity is within the House and Senate. Especially those who voted on the bill without ever reading it. When the then Majority Leader say "You have to pass it to find out what is in it", well, who is the stupid one?

Then the same current minority leader says, "I do not know Gruber" when she championed his work all throughout the process, further my belief that she thinks we are too stupid to remember the dumb things she said.
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2014 09:39 am
There have been lies told on both sides and so many myths it is hard for anybody to sort fact from pure fiction concerning the ACA.






revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2014 09:50 am
Senate Democrats Announce That They Have Obama’s Back On Immigration Executive Orders

About time.
coldjoint
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2014 10:49 am
@revelette2,
Quote:
___Harry Reid __________________________Richard Durbin
__________________________

Charles Schumer
__________________________

Patty Murray
__________________________

Robert Menendez
__________________________

Michael Bennet

http://www.reid.senate.gov/press_releases/2014-17-11-senate-democrats-in-letter-to-president-obama-after-house-gop-failure-to-act-we-fully-support-your-executive-authority-to-improve-immigration-system
There are the Senate Democrats that are backing him. I count six. Surely Reid and Schumer are shining examples of pandering suck puppies.
0 Replies
 
coldjoint
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Nov, 2014 11:06 am
@revelette2,
Quote:
There have been lies told on both sides


Wrong, the lying is decidedly one-sided.
0 Replies
 
Banana Breath
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2014 10:25 am
@maxdancona,
As you can plainly see in this chart, your premise is wrong, your assertion is stupid, and American voters simply want donuts, given that they've forgotten how to spell doughnuts.
http://i60.tinypic.com/34t51zl.jpg
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2014 11:24 am
@woiyo,
I disagree with your premise; it's the American voters that made the decision to elect the people in congress who made the decision without knowing what they were approving.

This nonsense have been going on forever; it started with the wars started on lies by our elected officials. Who elected those officials? One guess.

Everything else is history.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2014 11:25 am
@Banana Breath,
You need to explain what the chart means. Red for the US means what?
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2014 12:21 am
@Banana Breath,
Where is the Country named Other located?
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2014 12:40 am
@Banana Breath,
How does Krispy Kream spell it.
0 Replies
 
hobhob
 
  2  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2014 08:55 pm
@coldjoint,
sooo stupid man!!!
coldjoint
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2014 09:12 pm
@hobhob,
Quote:
sooo stupid man!!!


Where did you come from? The stupid is thinking that Obola has Americas interests in mind.
0 Replies
 
Kolyo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2014 09:18 pm
It's not that voters are "stupid". It's just that the plutocracy's propaganda on TV is very powerful. People are bombarded with lies, and they don't know how to distinguish lies from truth. Don't worry, soon the poor on minimum wage won't be able to afford TV's any more. The propaganda won't reach them, and they'll appear to be a lot "smarter".
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2014 12:41 am
@maxdancona,
I haven't read through all the comments in this thread yet but I think I've gotten the gist of you argument. I'm pausing here to suggest that your assertion in response to revelette is wrong.

Slogans and 30 second commercials are obviously employed in political campaigns but I don't know how you back-up up your assumption that it is these techniques that decide elections.

Some people neither need nor want long-winded, nuanced policy dissertations, and realize that even if they are provided them by candidates they are very likely to contain statistics that are framed in a way to support one side or the other, logical fallacies and obfuscation galore and plenty of downright lies.

Obamacare didn't require debating policy wonks to be understood by the voters, in fact it was one of Gruber's central points that if the legislation had been explained in a cogent manner which most voters could grasp, it would have received even greater public opposition.

Gruber gleefully admitted that an absence of transparency was a political advantage, but this isn't proof, as he suggested, of the American voter's stupidity, quite the opposite. He, essentially, admitted that if the intent and mechanism of the ACA was explained in a way that anyone might understand, it would have been toast. If you have to lie and confuse to get legislation passed it means that the voters are smart enough to recognize a bad idea when they see it. If they were stupid, the Dems could have told them exactly what they intended and the voters wouldn't have known any better.

For one of the most arrogant SOBs I've ever seen, perhaps the height of Gruber's arrogance is the suggestion that anyone was stupid because they couldn't see past the lies and obfuscation he was engineering. He, and I suspect you, confuse stupidity with other characteristics like trust and frustration. For a number of reasons, that don't include his track record, Obama was able to obtain the trust of a large segment of the population. Of course he has cynically abused that trust, and particularly so with Obamacare, but this doesn't mean the people who invested their trust in him did so because of stupidity (and here I define stupidity as lack of intelligence, not foolishness). And the people that didn't burn down the White House because of their opposition to Obamacare didn't fail to do so because they stupidly believed the BS they were being told.

The voters don't need Lincoln/Douglas style debates that last for hours to determine for whom they should vote. They need honesty, plain language and all the facts and they are not getting them from candidates of either party. So instead they rely one people who they trust and who they think have taken the time they don't have to dig through all the BS for something like the truth: friends, relatives, pundits, radio talk-show hosts, even actors. They also rely on their overall sense of what each party stands for.

I'm sure that there are plenty of voters with low intelligence who vote for one candidate or the other for ridiculous reasons that only a "stupid" person might conceive, (See Gwyneth Paltrow, who is ready to make Obama a dictator because he's so, so handsome) but I'm also sure this is not the profile of the average voter. The "stupid" people who vote, for the most part, go to work every day, raise families, participate in social undertakings and generally manage to keep themselves and their families alive while contributing to society in ways small and large. If given the truth and the facts, deciding on who they think will best run the government is hardly the toughest challenge they have to face.

You seem to think that voters have the ultimate say over how campaigns are run. This might be true if they were provided options every year. If everyone is lying, obfuscating and slinging mud, how do your propose they register their displeasure with the practices? Writing letters to the editors of their local paper?

Obviously as a progressive you are inclined to think that the citizenry is incapable of determining what is best for not only the country, but for themselves; that they need experts like Gruber to make those determinations. Perhaps, like him, you bemoan the need for lies and obfuscation that is created by the stupidity of a populace that has the power of the vote.

In any case, even if it is true that the vast majority of voters are stupid, they do not all share the same stupidity; they are not simply one version of the same stupid lemming rushing over a cliff. They're stupid disagreements may sometime make it difficult to get things that are necessary done, but they also make it even more difficult for us to all rush off that cliff. I much prefer the random stupidity of the people fitfully directing the course of the nation, than any well oiled machine run solely by an elite cadre of grand intellects like Gruber and Obama.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2014 07:17 am
I agree that many US voters are stupid. The question is: compared to what?they are plenty stupid french voters too, and in other nations too I guess. Perhaps a better case can be made that US voters are more stupid than they used to be in the recent past.

And their leadership too is going down. Compare W to his father, or Obama to Clinton.

Michael Moore has argued that the 'dumbing down of America' through defunding the public school system and other means, was a deliberate effort by the elite to defang the US democratic system, to make it incapable of changing anything that matters. I am not informed enough and wonder if Moore (whom I have a lot of respect for) isn't being too radical here. Conspiracy theories are rarely true. I remember finding his argument strong but not totally conclusive. I don't remember which book it was...

However, the situation certainly serves the interest of the current elite. Their kids gona get the best educations and jobs, not yours. The media doesn't need to think too hard to sell their 'news' so the dumbing down trend is in their short term interest too. Not to mention Murdock's efforts to inject toxic discourse and stupidity in the US polity through FAUX Noose, Wall Street Journal, etc.

Democracy depends on a well-informed and resonnably smart electorate to work. The key to making democracy a show, a pretense, is therefore to dumb down the electorate. Whether it is deliberate or not, there is more to this than just 'people being stupid'. It's an entire social system (public education+the media+electorate) that is degrading, or being degraded.

Baldimo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Nov, 2014 07:41 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Very well put Finn. I have nothing else to add.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2014 02:26 am
@Olivier5,
Considering that the US spends more money per pupil on education than any country in the world any "defunding" Moore has ranted about must have been minor.

You characterization of Fox News and the WSJ has to born of ignorance not consumption, because it is utter nonsense.

Just who are the Elite of which you speak?

Also, do you believe that poor people are incapable of instilling in their children qualities that will lead to their success without access to private schools?
 

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