How To Solve The Problem Of Terrorist Islam?

Re: How To Solve The Problem Of Terrorist Islam?

Moishe3rd wrote:

I would propose that Islam has to reform itself. But I see no signs of it doing so, nor do I even perceive that a large, serious group of Muslims sees the necessity for doing so.
But, if that is the answer, then how do we convince Islam to reform itself?
( How do we get the mullahs and sheiks and "presidents" and dictators and clerics, etcetera to stop the bad guys and reform themselves?)

Moishe,

Actually, I think you have written PART of the solution above. But I think its a 2-Way street. We have to get countries like USA to reform itself also. That is, you can't just go into a country, kick ass, kill civilians along with military, torture and humiliate prisoners for the entire world to see, have 135,000 troops sitting around and tell everyone to hurry up and reform themselves.

I mean, seriously, reverse it, if your mind is capable of it-- consider this: Some country invades USA and has their troops stationed everywhere throughout the country. They torture prisoners, some of which are probably innocent. And on top of that, they say you must reform. You are a young American. What will you do. Will you reform as they want you to, or will you become an insurgent and try to take your country back by whatever means at your disposal?

I'm thinking that, in that situation, rather than "reforming themselves" as you suggest, a lot of good patriotic Americans will tend to become MORE RADICAL and use any means possible to take back the country, and if they saw their core values being attacked, they'd fight back however they could.

What would you do, reform in whatever way the conquerors asked?

I believe you'd see some become terrorists who would not have considered it prior to the invasion. (Thus: perhaps we are actually creating some more terrorists by our actions).

Consider: Perhaps there's an 8 year old kid seeing his family get killed by these "liberators." Do you think that it just might be possible that 20 years from now, this kid might be slightly more likely to become a terrorist?

See, thats an integral part of the "Problem" you've posed.
On the one hand, you want them all to reform.
On the other hand, its okay for us to go in and kill their families? We are breeding more terrorists by our actions. Do you not see this?

We are currently ensuring that there will be a fresh crop of terrorists 20 years from now. All they have to do is point to the prison torture photos, for example. Do you truly not see that we are creating more terrorists?

People react. We reacted to 9/11, as we should have. They'll react also. Their country has been devastated. They'll react for years to come.

**

WE have to change also.

Now we've got a problem where two sides hate each other. As long as that hatred is here or in Iraq, this problem won't go away.

Hatred breeds more hatred. And that will lead to more terrorists.

The US needs to change its attitudes and actions also.

Do you truly believe US is blameless in all this, and its just a case of "Islam All Bad, USA all Good!?"

See, I truly believe part of the problem is things like arrogant Americans who think we can do no wrong. This kind of things directly leads to more terrorism. We've got reform, also. When that becomes possible.

Again, I think you have written part of the solution.

I'm just saying I think we need to look in the mirror, also. I think we are part of this problem. Maybe not even 50% of the problem. But definitely a part. We've got to look at that.

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Quote:

Actually, I think you have written PART of the solution above. But I think its a 2-Way street. We have to get countries like USA to reform itself also. That is, you can't just go into a country, kick ass, torture and humiliate prisoners, and tell everyone to hurry up and reform themselves.
WE have to change also.
Now we've got a problem where two sides hate each other. As long as that hatred is here or in Iraq, this problem won't go away.
The US needs to change its attitudes and actions also.
Do you truly believe US is blameless in all this, and its just a case of "Islam All Bad, USA all Good!?"

No.
Speaking from a non religious point of view (as I have a conflict if we are talking about my religion; your religion; their religion - of course I believe in my religion making "other" religion suspect), Islam is GREAT!
Love the whole romantic stereotype of Islam. It may not be strictly true, but it was true enough. The Muslims did not start slaughtering infidels as a policy until after the Crusader rape of Jersusalem, where, after letting the ruling Muslims go, they slaughtered the rest of the population - mostly Coptic Christians and Jews.
There was the casual rape, enslavement and murder of infidels in Islam, but "cultured" and "civilized" Muslims avoided such things before the Crusades.
The refined and cultured "desert warrior" and servant of G-d has given way however, as Muslim authors have pointed out, to jihaddists and despots who enjoy blood, money and power.
When they are able to attack the United States on its own soil, for the first time in its history, well...
I think that not expecting an overwhelming and crushing response from the greatest military, social and economic power the world has ever known is a bit naive.
I am sure that there is a Muslim proverb somewhere that says "if the desert fleas should attack the stone fortress of the servants of G-d, it would seem likely that the servants of G-d would crush the fleas... utterly."

Blameless...
Hmmm... I am having difficulty with this.
Are you saying the U.S. aggravates people? Yes, we do.
Are you saying the U.S. does things that it ought not to do? Yes, we do.
Are you saying we ought to be a kinder and gentler nation? Yes, we should.

Are you saying that the United States is to blame for having Islamic Fascist Death Cultists savagely slaughter thousands upon thousands of innocent Americans; Kenyans; Nigerians; Iranians; Iraqis; Sudanese; Afghanis and Pakistanis?
Are you implying that the U.S. is to blame for have Islamic Fascist Death Cultists cut the heads off living Americans and Koreans....
Mad

Contrary to what some might think, I attempt to be civil and reasonable.
However, if you believe that the U.S. is to blame for these depredations, then I must offer you the utmost incivilities.
No, we are not to blame. Islamic Murdering Barbaric Savage Death Worshipping Infidels are to blame.

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Moishe3rd wrote:

Quote:

if you believe that the U.S. is to blame for these depredations, then I must offer you the utmost incivilities.
No, we are not to blame. Islamic Murdering Barbaric Savage Death Worshipping Infidels are to blame.

Good. No, I don't believe we're to blame for these groups.

What I am saying, though, is we are part of the whole thing.

Lets say a country invaded USA and took over. Don't you think there would be radical groups of Americans that would spring up, take hostages of anyone connected they thought connected to the invaders, and do insane things to their hostages? There is no doubt in my mind this would happen.

What I am saying is not that "we are to blame."

Just: this is the kind of thing that happens in war. We are contributing to the situation. Islam radicals must change. But we have to change also.

The radicals are desperate, and they are doing desperate things. But I think the same thing would happen right here, given all circumstances.

What I am saying is part of the problem is the Islamic radicals, but another part of it is American policy and actions.

As far as these terms you use like "Death Worshipping," well, we have that on our side also. I've saw news clips of some US bomber dropping bombs on a Baghdad city. Bomb strikes target, bodies go flying, airplane cockpit erupts into high fives and "Yeah!" Pretty close to a death worshipping scene. Or at least a thrill kill scene.

I'm just saying if you are an Iraqi watching the US, can't you see how we could look pretty bad, also?

You describe them as terrible. But don't you see how we can be seen to be terrible, through their eyes?

I just think the better question might be: "How do you resolve the ongoing war between the West and Islam?"

Because as long as that war continues, we'll have the radical splinter groups. You can't get rid of the radicals without resolving this overall conflict thats been going on for years.

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Craven de Kere wrote:

So in lieu of intelligent debate his only stock and store on A2K is to troll.

A big part of that is simply dismissing the disagreement he encounters as "ranting and raving" as he lacks the ability to rebutt them on an intellectual level.

So ignore the playground tactics.

Playground tactics - a metaphor involving kitchenware comes to mind. Well, well Craven. I see according to your exalted wisdom I must come across as an illiterate yokel. I guess since I don't adopt the constantly condescending tone of an expert (uncredentialed/unlearned expert), and don't throw about the accusations of "falacies, falacies" every other line, that must make me a totall imbecile; a sputtering ignoramus who has no "intelligent" debate whatsoever.

Oh, how my ego has been crushed by such a debilitating blow from such a renowned paradigm of "intelligence". But, then again: Perhaps you should watch yourself. At the very least whenever I offer my words 99% of the time I include a disclaimer marking them as my own "opinions" (not to be mistaken with yours which obviously must be the words of the gods given through the mouth of their oracle Craven Laughing

). I have never seen you post anything that even suggests of a possible humility (facetious, tactical or otherwise).

Though you may vehemently disagree, such rampant arrogance could easily be labeled as "trolling", could it not? I once heard a man say something that may be applicable? He was a man of poor debating skills, who's writings were packed with falacies, debating errors, romanticism, drama, and the like. Yet he once said:

The fool thinks himself to be wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare

Since I don't know myself to be a fool (yet), I imagine I have yet to be considered wise. Nevertheless, I am not yet completely drunk with a sense of my own intellect. Luck with your kettles. Very Happy

P.S. I am going to post this same post on the several threads you place your haughty accusations. I'm sure you won't mind, as I am just a trolling simpleton. :wink:

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Lusatian wrote:

Well, well Craven. I see according to your exalted wisdom I must come across as an illiterate yokel.

No, but a message board troll.

I'll ignore the rest of your attempt to get a rise out of me, that's your only stock and store. You only come to this site to troll.

Hell you even threaten to copy and paste your latest trolling elsewhere, a spammy staple of the forum troll.

But that's ok, I'm sure it means a lot to you. Everyone needs to be something and you've found your calling.

You can't argue well but you can troll.

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..

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tcis wrote:

Moishe3rd wrote:
Here's a question or two:
Does the United States of America in particular and other capitalist democractic republics in general have anything to worry about in terms of "murderous attacks" against its citizens or its economic interests?

If we do have something to worry about - what would you all call it?

If we do have something to worry about - what would you all do about it?

Anyone?

M,
Here's a list of how many people die annually from various causes in US:

Tobacco 435,000
Poor Diet and Physical Inactivity 400,000
Alcohol 85,000 / 101,653
Microbial Agents 75,000
Toxic Agents 55,000
Motor Vehicle Crashes 43,000 / 26,347
Adverse Reactions to Prescription Drugs 32,000
Suicide 30,622
Incidents Involving Firearms 29,000
Homicide 20,308
Sexual Behaviors 20,000
All Illicit Drug Use, Direct and Indirect 17,000
Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs Such As Aspirin 7,600

How many died in 9/11? Less than 4,000?

To answer your question, yes, I think we have something to worry about. But if we're worrying about dying, we should be much more worried about things like: poor diet, aspirin, prescription drugs, motor vechicle accidents, etc. Much more worried.

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The 1st post on this thread was a genuine question seeking a solution to the dilemma of Islam's violent and hate filled teaching. Unfortunately I'm reaching the conclusion there isn't a peaceful solution. I am more and more fearful that the radical Islamic terrorists will succeed in attacking the U.S. in ways that we will be unable to shrug off. 9/11 was only a pin-prick, imagine what will happen when the Islamic terrorists finally succeed in destroying one or more large cities with radiological weapons. The reaction scares me at least as much as the attack. The U.S. will destroy key cities in the middle east in retaliation, and that unfortunately will be the catalyst that begins the reformation of Islam. This conclusion now seems inevitable.

It is natural to question that this reaction will occur. But think about the scenario. American's will be angry, they will be calling for martial law and prison camps, for all Muslims to be interned, the markets will collapse, there will be riots and lynchings. The government will have no "target" that will satisfy the thirst for revenge, the people will not be willing to wait until we "know for sure" who is responsible.

Islam will be a victim of its success.

If only there was an answer to that first question, instead of avoiding the question and attacking the motives behind it. We need to acknowledge the realities and address them, or face the larger evil that will come.

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neilharvey94044 wrote:

It is natural to question that this reaction will occur. But think about the scenario. American's will be angry, they will be calling for martial law and prison camps, for all Muslims to be interned, the markets will collapse, there will be riots and lynchings. The government will have no "target" that will satisfy the thirst for revenge, the people will not be willing to wait until we "know for sure" who is responsible.

And you think people will be satisfied when the US destroys key cities in the Middle East in retaliation? Right. Rolling Eyes

And to what extent do you think these Islamic terrorists will succeed in destroying one or more large US cities?

neilharvey94044 wrote:

Islam will be a victim of its success.

"The" Islam is not the Islam these fundamentalists adhere to. Their extreme ideas are not shared by the majority of the Muslims in this world. And please explain 'victim of its success'.

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Quote:

Good. No, I don't believe we're to blame for these groups.
What I am saying, though, is we are part of the whole thing.
Lets say a country invaded USA and took over. Don't you think there would be radical groups of Americans that would spring up, take hostages of anyone connected they thought connected to the invaders, and do insane things to their hostages? There is no doubt in my mind this would happen.
What I am saying is not that "we are to blame."
Just: this is the kind of thing that happens in war. We are contributing to the situation. Islam radicals must change. But we have to change also.
The radicals are desperate, and they are doing desperate things. But I think the same thing would happen right here, given all circumstances.
What I am saying is part of the problem is the Islamic radicals, but another part of it is American policy and actions.
As far as these terms you use like "Death Worshipping," well, we have that on our side also. I've saw news clips of some US bomber dropping bombs on a Baghdad city. Bomb strikes target, bodies go flying, airplane cockpit erupts into high fives and "Yeah!" Pretty close to a death worshipping scene. Or at least a thrill kill scene.
I'm just saying if you are an Iraqi watching the US, can't you see how we could look pretty bad, also?
You describe them as terrible. But don't you see how we can be seen to be terrible, through their eyes?
I just think the better question might be: "How do you resolve the ongoing war between the West and Islam?"
Because as long as that war continues, we'll have the radical splinter groups. You can't get rid of the radicals without resolving this overall conflict thats been going on for years.

Okay, we have some common ground here. But I will respectfully disagree with your assumptions.

No, I don't think that a radical American group would spring up, take hostages, and do insane things to these hostages - such as cut their heads off while shouting "America Rocks!"

And, what they particularly would never, ever, not even the remotest chance, do - which you left out, and which is the crux of the problem - would be to murder; slaughter; brutally annilhilate thousands of innocent Americans just to strike back at the "collaborators" with the new regime that removed the vicious, murdering, barbaric American President who used to murder and rape Americans for sport.

There is simply no historical or sociological precedent for Americans of any stripe committing these kinds of depradations. There is a long history of Fascism Islam doing exactly this. (Google Wahhabi; Deodani; Salafi; etc.)

You call them desparate radicals. Desparate for what? Radicalized for what? The fact that we trained the original militants to kill Soviets? The fact that their governments are failed, savage dictatorships? The fact that we treat with these governments instead of overthrowing them?
No, tcis, it is the fact that we are not the particular cult of Islam that they propound.
That's the fac', Jac.

The fact that our pilots or marines or soldiers are gleeful when they kill the enemy does not translate to Islamic Fascists praising Allah as they cut off the head of an innocent victim or murder a few hundred of their fellow Muslims. It has no relationship whatsoever.

And, the Islamic Fascists claim themselves to worship death. They believe it makes them strong. It's not my opinion, it's theirs.

However, yes. I am absolutely sure it is terrible in the eyes of innocent Muslims or Iraqis or whomever who are unintentionally hurt or even killed in this awful war. It is a terrible tragedy and these people will be very angry at the United States.
However, these people are not the enemy. Their fellow Muslim Fascist who not only wants to kill United States citizens, but anyone else who happens to be convenient. Anyone. Anyone at all.

These Islamic Fascist Death Cultists are the ones that must be destroyed.
And, quite frankly, after reading and posting and discussing this idea for awhile, I have concluded that it is going to be their fellow Muslim citizens who are going to destroy them.
With the help of the United States...
And G-d.

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Moishe3rd wrote:

Quote:

There is simply no historical or sociological precedent for Americans of any stripe committing these kinds of depradations. There is a long history of Fascism Islam doing exactly this. (Google Wahhabi; Deodani; Salafi; etc.)
G-d.

You have some good points.

However:
Have you ever heard of the genocide that Americans performed on the American Indians?

Perhaps you rationalize that genocide by thinking that they needed to have the fear of G-d in them, or die.

Have you ever heard of Americans going to Africa to forcibly take slaves. Ripping families apart. And if they resisted, they were tortured and killed.

Have you heard of the Trail of Tears, a death march of thousands of miles during which my ancestors were raped, murdered, and tortured?

Have you heard of the Mai Lai Massacre?

Read. Learn. Listen.

I think you actually have some good points. But when you come off with this arrogant attitude of "America can do no wrong, we're right, they're wrong," and...you lose a lot of credibility in my view.

I am an American also, just like you. I'd like to see our country improve along with the rest of the world.

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Quote:

I call BS:
Have you ever heard of the genocide that Americans performed on the American Indians? Probably not.
Perhaps you rationalize that genocide by thinking that they needed to have the fear of G-d in them, or die.
Have you ever heard of Americans going to Africa to forcibly take slaves. Ripping families apart. And if they resisted, they were tortured and killed.
Have you heard of the Trail of Tears, a death march of thousands of miles during which my ancestors were raped, murdered, and tortured?
Have you heard of the Mai Lai Massacre?
Read. Learn. Listen.
I think you actually have some good points. But when you come off with this arrogant attitude of "America can do no wrong, we're right, they're wrong," and...you lose a lot of credibility in my view.

America does lots of wrong.
You are extremely right in stating that fact. Smile

However, what I am arguing is your comparisons and your solutions.
I am not going to try to justify the above atrocities that you carefully spell out. The fact is that they are notendemic to Americans. Every atrocity you went through has been committed by every people on this planet including the American Indians and the Vietnamese and the Africans. They have also been committed on every group on this planet, including Americans.

What is specific is that the American Indians; the Vietnamese; the Africans and the Americans did not respond to atrocities or acts of war committed upon them by seeking out large numbers of their peaceful co-citizens (other Indians; Vietnamese or Americans) or simply anyone, anywhere who happened to be in the place of death, and murder them because they believed that their G-d likes that kind of thing.

Yes, you can argue that the Communist Belief system allowed this kind of atrocity for their non-god, but that belief system is currently a dead issue, as is the belief system that you can casually enslave people and wipe out large numbers of them just because you can...
Except in by Islamic despots such as in Sudan.

My Lai bad - Americans evil
Indian depradations bad - Americans evil
Slavery bad - Americans evil

My Lai prosecuted; Americans driven out of Vietnam; America repents...
Indians allowed to continue on land (I realize that this is personal to you, but there is not one place on this earth besides the U.s.; Canada and Israel where the native population was not entirely enslaved or subjugated or murdered when the conquerors came - no place, not one); gradually allowed to become citizens; American is still trying to come to grips with this...
Civil War; Slaves freed; Civil Rights; Blacks and other minorities equal; America repents.

Why this blather on my part? Because its apples and oranges.
Let the islamo fascist free their slaves. Good idea.
Let the Islamo fascists stop murdering their fellow Muslims. Good idea.
Let the Islamo fascists let the people who live on the land where the Islamo fascists would rather kick them off of; murder them and enslave them - live on the land. Good idea.

All of the depredations you mention were bad ideas.
The Islamo fascists are still committing them.
And, I did not say and do not say that America doesn't or hasn't done bad things.
What I did say was that Americans have no history of trying consistently to kill innocents over and over and over again as acts of terror against a perceived enemy.

Well, except for the Japanese... And the Germans.... And the Philippinos....

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M,

Okay, actually I think we have a lot of common ground.

Here's a big part of the problem, I think:

We can't expect to get rid of these radical Islamic groups without solving the larger war/conflict between Islam and the West. As long as this conflict continues, I think their will be these radical splinter groups.

If we can create true peace between Islam and the West, I think at that point, the majority of Islam wouldn't tolerate these radical groups. Then, we'd see them largely disappear.

But I don't know that they'll ever disappear 100%. It seems almost like saying "How do we get rid of all crime forever in our cities?"

In any event, here's my point: Do you think we can get rid of the radical groups without solving the larger conflict?

To solve this larger conflict, I am saying the US needs to look in the mirror and adjust their policies and actions, just as they ask the rest of the mid-east to "reform." We need to step outside of ourselves just a bit and be aware of how the rest of the world currently perceives us. A lot of neutral countries almost see us as warmongers, an evil empire. I do not think this is necessarily true. Perception is reality, though. And this perception does not help our cause. Perhaps if we can truly pursue peace, the other side will. As we become more peaceful the radical groups will stand out more as outcasts. Right now, recent events are still fueling the fire of the radicals.

We've got "violent radicals" on our side, though we don't call them that. For example, the Americans who participated in the prison tortures are probably not "as bad" as the death cults you are speaking of. Still, don't you see how Iraqis/Muslims could view these torturers as "Radical Torture Worshipping Westerners Who Must Die?"

Can you see how things like the prison tortures, the accidental killing of Iraqi civilians by US, the televised segments of US soldiers laughing at the sight of deaths of the enemy, etc., can actually create more people who might decide to join their radical groups?

We are not to blame. But we're now part of the fuel on the fire. We could improve, just as we're asking them to improve.

We can't get rid of the radicals without getting rid of the larger conflict which has planted the seed for their growth. We can't say to them "Okay, well lets agree we hate each other, and we don't want you to have any weapons cause we don't trust you so we're going to occupy your country, but in the meantime could you do something about your radical groups?"

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[quote="Rick d'Israeli]
And you think people will be satisfied when the US destroys key cities in the Middle East in retaliation? Right. And to what extent do you think these Islamic terrorists will succeed in destroying one or more large US cities?[/quote]

They said they would bring down the towers - it was reported in the press prior to 9/11 and they had already made one nearly successful attempt. We did nothing to keep them from doing it, so they succeeded. They are persistent and will not rest, they have access to the material, and they have the will. And once again we aren't doing enough to keep it from happening...I'm not sure it's even possible to do enough. So yes, I believe they will be successful.

[quote="Rick d'Israeli]
"The" Islam is not the Islam these fundamentalists adhere to. Their extreme ideas are not shared by the majority of the Muslims in this world. And please explain 'victim of its success'.[/quote]

I believe exactly the inverse. That a large number of Muslims reject much of what Islam teaches. Just as large numbers of Catholics reject much of what the Church teaches. In the case of Islam these individuals are on the right track. However, Islam itself teaches evil and many Muslims are true believers; and a larger number of Muslims are sympathetic to their evil even if they don't overtly participate.

I'm not sure how equilibrium is reached between Islam and the West without a cataclysmic event.

It is analogous to the recent rise of gay morality... a desire for marriage and children and acceptance. Yes, for some this always existed, but for most the gay lifestyle was a big self indulgent sex party; until AIDS. When AIDS arrived morality closely followed because it was about survival.

Islam will reform when its people's survival depends upon it. So far Islam's evil teachings have fostered its growth and that is why I say it will be a victim of its own success. It has grown over confident and has taken on a bigger adversary than it's people and its culture can defeat. When Japan awoke the sleeping giant the U.S. used nuclear weapons to defeat them, now they are a reformed and pacifist nation we call a friend. The Islamic nations of the Middle East will unfortunately follow a similar path. I wish this path could be avoided by reform from within...but it wont happen. Many millions will need to die first.

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neilharvey94044 wrote:

They said they would bring down the towers - it was reported in the press prior to 9/11 and they had already made one nearly successful attempt. We did nothing to keep them from doing it, so they succeeded. They are persistent and will not rest, they have access to the material, and they have the will. And once again we aren't doing enough to keep it from happening...I'm not sure it's even possible to do enough. So yes, I believe they will be successful.

Claiming this is not proving it. I want you to specify on 'we aren't doing enough' and 'I believe they will be successful' (if you would be so kind).

Quote:

I believe exactly the inverse. That a large number of Muslims reject much of what Islam teaches. Just as large numbers of Catholics reject much of what the Church teaches.

The comparison you make can not even be made. Catholics should (I say should) listen to the Pope; he is the one who God sent to earth as His messenger. Where is such a person in Islam? Islam is as diverse as Christianity or Judaism: Sufis are not the same as Sunnis; Sunnis are not the same as the Shiites.

neilharvey94044 wrote:

However, Islam itself teaches evil and many Muslims are true believers

You watch too much FoxNews.

neilharvey94044 wrote:

When Japan awoke the sleeping giant the U.S. used nuclear weapons to defeat them, now they are a reformed and pacifist nation we call a friend.

1) You are talking to a person who finds the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasika highly controversial; 2) A nation is somewhat different than a religion. Islam is much more diverse among its followers. Therefore you can not 'just' bomb a city in the Middle East to achieve your goals for all of Islam.

neilharvey94044 wrote:

I wish this path could be avoided by reform from within...but it wont happen. Many millions will need to die first.

One thing: imagine you are a Muslim man in a certain city in the Middle East. People 2,000 miles away decide you have to die for a 'greater cause'. How would you feel? It is so easy to say 'millions have to die' when you're not one of them.

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Okay, I realize that I am going to stoke the fire higher, but the fact is that we have widely divergent views of the world at large.

Quote:

To solve this larger conflict, I am saying the US needs to look in the mirror and adjust their policies and actions, just as they ask the rest of the mid-east to "reform." We need to step outside of ourselves just a bit and be aware of how the rest of the world currently perceives us. A lot of neutral countries almost see us as warmongers, an evil empire. I do not think this is necessarily true. Perception is reality, though. And this perception does not help our cause. Perhaps if we can truly pursue peace, the other side will. As we become more peaceful the radical groups will stand out more as outcasts. Right now, recent events are still fueling the fire of the radicals.

I understand that many see the United States as as evil.
This saddens me greatly. But it saddens me because it says a great deal about the values of those that call us evil.
I am tempted to go back in time to other countries that called us evil, but people go "ho-hum" when you start discussing real history.
So, I'll simply use today's news.
Saddam Hussein believes that we are evil. He believes that President Bush is a war criminal
Saddam Hussein is a dangerous psychopath who absolutely no moral values and has a totally different "perception of reality" than I do.
So, other than trying to understand his twisted psyche in order that I may defend myself against this evil, his perceptions matter to me not a whit. I do indeed inhabit a different reality than he does.
I do not value his reality.
His reality disgusts me.
And, in the long run, his reality is totally self-destructive. My reality is not.

Perception is not reality.

In a lesser vein, Al Gore's reality includes calling me a Nazi (digital brown shirt) because I support President Bush and write rebuttals like this one.
I do not value Al Gore's reality.

The same to greater and lesser extents goes for Jaques Chirac; the Muslim world that hates us; and the Europe that hates us.
I do not value the reality of European Justice.
Pound for pound; judicial decision for judicial decision, American justice has a far, far better track record than the invented European courts.
It has to do with the fact that the United States was founded as a country of Laws, not tinkered with from conquests and rapes and lootings and divine rights of nobility and different ownership and adjustments - until, after the horrors of World War II, they finally cobbled together a European style system of justice.

I do not value the Saudi; Jordanian; Iranian; Syrian; Egyptian; etcetera forms of justice.
They are savage, barbaric and beneath contempt.
I do not value their reality.

We do pursue peace.
But short of bending over and taking another Islamic Fascist Terror Attack up our fundament, we must pursue peace by establishing justice. American justice.
Where every person is valued for what they do and what they contribute.
And before you protest that we do not practice this form of justice, bear in mind, we are supposed to!
It is in our Constitution.
It is in our Laws.
It is in our towns and villages.
It is in our elections.
It is in our churches and synagogues.
It is the fabric of our country.

It is not the fabric of Morocco or Sudan or France or Russia.
Their idea of justice is not the same as ours.
I value our idea of justice.

And that answers your next critique:

Quote:

We've got "violent radicals" on our side, though we don't call them that. For example, the Americans who participated in the prison tortures are probably not "as bad" as the death cults you are speaking of. Still, don't you see how Iraqis/Muslims could view these torturers as "Radical Torture Worshipping Westerners Who Must Die?"
Can you see how things like the prison tortures, the accidental killing of Iraqi civilians by US, the televised segments of US soldiers laughing at the sight of deaths of the enemy, etc., can actually create more people who might decide to join their radical groups?
We are not to blame. But we're now part of the fuel on the fire. We could improve, just as we're asking them to improve.
We can't get rid of the radicals without getting rid of the larger conflict which has planted the seed for their growth. We can't say to them "Okay, well lets agree we hate each other, and we don't want you to have any weapons cause we don't trust you so we're going to occupy your country, but in the meantime could you do something about your radical groups?"

The United States tries; it struggles; it attempts to do what is right.
We attempt to punish, often severely, those that do what is wrong.

Half of Saudi Arabia celebrates the butchering of innocents.
Iran is sending terrorists into Iraq to slaughter fellow Muslims.
They believe this is justice!

This is not justice. This is barbarism.
They do not hate us because they think we are unjust. They hate us because they perceive that the United States is stronger; braver; and more just than their Islamic Fascist Death Cult.
And that is an insult not to be born.

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Moishe3rd wrote:

I do not value Al Gore's reality.
...
I do not value the reality of European Justice.
...
I do not value the Saudi; Jordanian; Iranian; Syrian; Egyptian; etcetera forms of justice.
...
I do not value their reality.
...
I value our idea of justice.

Okay, now I see why you post with the American Flag. Again, you have some good ideas. But in my mind you lose all credibility when you say things like "I value our ideas of justice and I don't value ____'s and ____'s and____'s ideas."

You probably don't value any ideas which don't agree with your own. Whatever.

Its thinking like that which will keep the terrorists growing and growing.

You don't value them. They don't value you. Let the war continue. Let the polarization continue.

I don't think you really want to get rid of the terrorists. It seems like you need someone around to devalue. Terrorism is the best thing that happened to the radical right in the USA. The military industrial complex needs an enemy. Bush needs the terrorists. Gives him something to scare Americans with. "You better elect me to make sure I can protect you from the bad guys. Don't take your chances with a liberal who is weak on terrorists." Terrorists are the perfect little enemy to keep around. They will hang around for 50+ years. They are just powerful enough to scare everyone and kill a few people now and then, but never a real threat to the nation as a whole. They are useful for Bush & Co. to use to say: "Oh no, we need more military $$$, there was another terrorist attack halfway around the world, so you don't mind us spending more of your tax dollars, right?"

I note you totally avoid my question of putting the shoe on the other foot. Say the USA was attacked and occupied tomorrow. Would you become an "insurgent/terrorist." and try to take back the USA, or would you become a sheep and listen to whatever the occupying country said?

I am saying our actions contributed to the growth of terrorism. We are not to blame. But we add fuel to their fire.

You might be interested in the thread I just started here:

Did the Iraq War Actually Have the Effect of Potentially Increasing the Numbers of Radical Islam Worldwide? http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=27960

This is very unscientific, but thus far 85% of the respondents said Yes.

I am not saying I have all the answers to ending radical violent terrorism. I am saying that going in a killing people and torturing people is not the way to do it.

These radical violent Islamic groups that you are worried about? I BELIEVE THEIR NUMBERS HAVE GROWN SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE IRAQ WAR. Do you think this is a coincidence?

Do you deny this?

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Re: How To Solve The Problem Of Terrorist Islam?

Moishe3rd wrote:

I would propose that Islam has to reform itself. But I see no signs of it doing so, nor do I even perceive that a large, serious group of Muslims sees the necessity for doing so.
But, if that is the answer, then how do we convince Islam to reform itself?
(Other than killing as many bad guys as we can. That is only satisfying in the short run. How do we get the mullahs and sheiks and "presidents" and dictators and clerics, etcetera to stop the bad guys and reform themselves?)

I would propose that USA has to reform itself. But I see no signs of it doing so, nor do I even perceive that a large, serious group of Republicans sees the necessity for doing so.
But, if that is the answer, then how do we convince USA to reform itself?
( How do we get the moderates of the Republican closet racists and bigots and religous right, etcetera to stop the violent conservative warmonger bad guys {Bush Administration} and reform themselves?)

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tcis,
I actually do value your convictions. We are simply coming from different places.

My beliefs are rooted in the idea that Good and Evil do indeed exist. G-d exists. There are good moral values and their are bad, immoral values.

In my belief system, G-d is Good. Honesty; kindness; hope; faith; charity; love; freedom from fear; rule of law; joy... are all good values.

Murder; torture; delight in the pain of others; hate; slavery; rule of fear; oppression; joy in the death of innocents.... are all bad values.

I believe that the United States attempts to promote good values.
We often fail.
We are often corrupt.
We are often wrong.
We need to try harder.
We need to work harder at it.
We need to succeed.
However, as a country; a culture; a government; a Constitution - we believe that good values are to be desired.

I believe that much of the world is indifferent to values.
Much of the world believes that good, bad, right, wrong - it's all a matter of perception.
Much of the world believes that what is important is that their particular country or culture should dominate, not because it is good, but because it their value system.
And there are many countries and cultures in the world that believe in slavery; domination by fear; murder by passion; death of innocents - are all good values. They believe that it is okay because.... ?? their G-d said so? I am not sure.

I do know that evil is practiced and promoted out of ignorance.

Islam was not spread by murdering all those that disagreed with Islam. It was not spread by terrorism and hatred and fear. It was spread by offering dysfunctional or crumbling belief systems a new start; a new vision; a new empire.

Today's Islamic Fascist Death Cultists and all those who apologize for them are totally ignorant of the history of mankind.
Evil has never won. It has its day; it has its collaborators; it has its apologists, but it has never won, not since the dawn of time.

Civilization wins.
The Good wins.
Faith, Hope and Love always win.
Always.

Quote:

I note you totally avoid my question of putting the shoe on the other foot. Say the USA was attacked and occupied tomorrow. Would you become an "insurgent/terrorist." and try to take back the USA, or would you become a sheep and listen to whatever the occupying country said?

Neither.
I would never murder the conqueror's children while they were on the way to school.
If the conqueror were to offer a better system of governance that we had, I might even support such a system. Admittedly, with my limited imagination, I don't believe that that is possible. The United States has the longest, most peaceful, most stable, most powerful, most free system of government that has ever existed on this planet. Now, I suppose if they gave me seventy-two virgins.... Naw....

Quote:

These radical violent Islamic groups that you are worried about? I BELIEVE THEIR NUMBERS HAVE GROWN SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE IRAQ WAR. Do you think this is a coincidence?
Do you deny this?

No and yes.
According to what I have read, Iran has sent over thirty thousand terrorists to Iraq to create havoc and cripple the idea of democracy.
Syria has sent thousands and there are thousands from all over the Muslim world who desire to create terror and chaos in Iraq.

That is not a "growth" of terrorists. That is a growth of their target of opportunity.
There are potentially tens of thousands of Palestinian terrorists who would love to be in Iraq murdering fellow Muslims, but they are not there. Why not? They have been stymied in Israel and there are theoretically millions living in some sort of refugee camps outside of Israel (Lebanon; Syria; Jordan) so why aren't they attacking Iraq?
There are Syrian, Lebanese, and Jordanian Muslims cheerfully murdering their fellow Muslims in Iraq. Where are all the Palestinians?
It is simply not their target of opportunity. (not to mention that all of their fellow Muslims largely despise the Palestinians. Arab values proclaim it is good to spit on the loser.)

Now here is my question:
Why do you think that the United States has to reform in order for (evil) Muslim (fascist death cultist) terrorists to reform.

When the Wahhabists (Saudi Arabian) first attacked Northern Saudi Arabia and Southern Iraq and took over several cities, slaughtering hundreds of thousands of Shia Muslims (and Sunnis who did not convert to Wahhabism) until the Ottoman Empire temporarily destroyed their abhorrent philosophy, do you believe that the Turks, or even Europe or the U.S. should have reformed at that time?
Do you think that the Ottoman Turkish oppression was responsible for this new intolerant murderous philosophy?
When the Wahhabists went on to conquer Medina and Mecca, taking them from Egyptian control and throwing out the Hashemite descendants of Mohammad, do you think that Egypt should have reformed? Or the Hashemite rulers should have reformed?

The same could be said for other vicious conquerors from Hilter to Attila.

There were many who believed that we should have come to an accomodation with Hitler's Germany and not fought the awful war that we fought.

In 452, Leo, the Bishop of Rome persuaded Attila not to sack Rome. The Huns did ravage all of Europe and Italy, but Rome was not finally destroyed for another 24 years by a whole other barbarian tribe, the Visigoths.

Accomodating and reforming in the face of a vicious enemy has not been a sound historical practice.

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Moishe3rd,

I think we largely agree on the radical terrorists.

What I have a problem with is USA's arrogant actions.

I think a fair analogy is Britain and the USA around the time of the Revolutionary War, Declaration of Independence, etc.

Lets take a look at the War of Independence between USA and Britain.

When Americans rebelled and attacked the occupying British on USA soil, the Americans were "insurgents."

USA's independence was built on the actions of "insurgents." American insurgents. Its like we're saying: Its fine for our country to be built on insurgents. Thats what we did to get the British out. But how dare you try to do to us what we did to the British in your country. Indpendence is good for us, but not for you. Here's your leader, we chose him, now be good and follow him."

How would the average American feel if another country came in, occupied, and installed a new leader? I think there would be insurgency galore.

You say good has always won out.

So has independence. Right now, (even with the ruler we picked and installed), Iraq is not independent.

I fear we are becoming like the model of the British Empire, which failed.

0 Replies

How To Solve The Problem Of Terrorist Islam?

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