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How To Solve The Problem Of Terrorist Islam?

 
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2004 05:32 pm
Kicky,

My point is that if this screed was about any other ethnic group, I believe you would agree with me that it was extreme and hateful.

Moishe is without question saying that Islam is reponsible for this violence. His solution is for this religion to "reform itself".

As with most of this type of extreme rhetoric, it makes no sense at its core.

To back up his case, he invokes a wide range of disparate causes including.

- The nationalistic struggle to end the occupation of Palestine.
- The Iraqi Baathists who until recently supported a secular government.
- Iraqis who are, for many reasons including nationalism, are resisting a military occupation.
- The Chechen struggle for independance from Russian rule.
- The legitimate theocratic government of Iran.
- The Islamist search for a religious Muslim state represented by Al Qaeda.

Of these six, only the last one is anything like what he is portraying, yet he lumps them all together as if Arabs Muslims are some kind of monolithic group.

Of course there are many movements that use similar tactics that Moishe conveniently leaves out of his rhetoric. You already mentioned the Christian bombers here... but there are much better examples...

- Drug Cartels in Columbia.
- Guerillas in Peru.
- American Supported militias in Niceragua, El Salvador and Guatemala in the 80's.
- The IRA related group.
- Extremist Israeli Settlers on the West Bank.
- The Lords Resistance Army in Africa.

At the core of Moishe's post is the premise that Islam promotes violence. This is, at its core, both ridiculous and offensive.

Groups use violence when they feel desparate, or when they feel justified because they feel their cause is so important, or their enemy is so "evil". Often religion is used as a way of motivating people to act, but brutality is not unique to any religion, nor is it caused by any religion.

And we should not forget our own history. I visited Guatemala where the US backed army wiped out entire villages (men, women and children) in our religious quest to stamp out communism. The US knew this was going on, and accepted it since our cause was so "just".

I am not at all condoning the use of brutal violence. I am against it in all cases.

On the contrary, I am opposing the hateful rhetoric that is so often used to justify it.

What does it take for a human being to commit these acts of brutality? The first step is to convince yourself that the people you are attacking are less than human, evil and deserving. This has always been done by making broad asperations over an ethnic group.

Those who commited the 9/11 attacks did this to justify their crime.

Moishe is not offering a solution to this brutality. He is offering a cause for more.
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2004 06:28 pm
Ebrown,

I might not agree with everything you say, but you always give me something to think about. I'll have to mull your post over and see how I feel about it. Thank you for the food for thought.
0 Replies
 
Radikal
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2004 07:15 pm
?
Osama Letter

Quote:
In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory"

[Quran 22:39] "Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan." Quran 4:76]

Some American writers have published articles under the title 'On what basis are we fighting?' These articles have generated a number of responses, some of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth - as an explanation and warning - hoping for Allah's reward, seeking success and support from Him.While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?

Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you? As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you?

The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years.

The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel.

The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily. (ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history.

The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon. (c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question: Why did they attack us in New York and Washington? If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all. It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest. We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object. Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

(viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.

(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.

(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?

(xii) Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All*manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others.

(a)The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the 'American friends'. Yet you prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic party in Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election, you unleashed your agents in the Algerian army onto them, and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison them and torture them - a new lesson from the 'American book of democracy'!!!

(b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.

(c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.

(d)As for the war criminals which you censure and form criminal courts for - you shamelessly ask that your own are granted immunity!! However, history will not forget the war crimes that you committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those you have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that you will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind you of your latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. You are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz, bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of your prisoners through suffocation and thirst. Allah alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of you and your agents. Your planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.

(e)You have claimed to be the vanguards of Human Rights, and your Ministry of Foreign affairs issues annual reports containing statistics of those countries that violate any Human Rights. However, all these things vanished when the Mujahideen hit you, and you then implemented the methods of the same documented governments that you used to curse. In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws. What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces - you hypocrites, "What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?"

(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you. If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words: "Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise." [Quran9:13-1]

The Nation of honour and respect: "But honour, power and glory belong to Allah, and to His Messenger (Muhammad- peace be upon him) and to the believers." [Quran 63:8]

"So do not become weak (against your enemy), nor be sad, and you will be*superior ( in victory )if you are indeed (true) believers" [Quran 3:139]

The Nation of Martyrdom; the Nation that desires death more than you desire life: "Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they are being provided for. They rejoice in what Allah has bestowed upon them from His bounty and rejoice for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve. They rejoice in a grace and a bounty from Allah, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the believers." [Quran 3:169-171]

The Nation of victory and success that Allah has promised: "It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad peace be upon him) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it victorious over all other religions even though the Polytheists hate it." [Quran 61:9]

"Allah has decreed that 'Verily it is I and My Messengers who shall be victorious.' Verily Allah is All-Powerful, All-Mighty." [Quran 58:21]

The Islamic Nation that was able to dismiss and destroy the previous evil Empires like yourself; the Nation that rejects your attacks, wishes to remove your evils, and is prepared to fight you. You are well aware that the Islamic Nation, from the very core of its soul, despises your haughtiness and arrogance. If the Americans refuse to listen to our advice and the goodness, guidance and righteousness that we call them to, then be aware that you will lose this Crusade Bush began, just like the other previous Crusades in which you were humiliated by the hands of the Mujahideen, fleeing to your home in great silence and disgrace.

If the Americans do not respond, then their fate will be that of the Soviets who fled from Afghanistan to deal with their military defeat, political breakup, ideological downfall, and economic bankruptcy. This is our message to the Americans, as an answer to theirs. Do they now know why we fight them and over which form of ignorance, by the permission of Allah, we shall be victorious?
0 Replies
 
swolf
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2004 09:16 pm
ebrown_p wrote:
Quote:

Islamic Fascist Death Cultists.

This is the best racist rant we have had in a long time!

Bravo!


How does being against I-slam make somebody a racist? I mean, slammites come in all colors.

What it really sounds like is that a lot of people in this country have been conditioned worse than Pavlov's dogs to automatically interpret ANY sort of thing which smacks of going against the PC grain as "racism" somehow or other, even when everybody in the picture is the same race and, sometimes, as in the case of Bosnians and Serbs, the same language.
0 Replies
 
swolf
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2004 09:29 pm
NickFun wrote:
George W. Bush kills innocent people in the name of Democracy and Christian values! That makes it OK, right?


http://metafella.topcities.com/election/ep6/crybaby.jpg

If you democrat crybabies want a war to really cry over, the one you want is Kosovo, and not Iraq.

http://www.children.org.yu/images/victims/milica.jpg

Milica Rakic: Slick Clinton's youngest female victim.



In Kosovo, you had large numbers of civilian casualties, and major damage to the civilian infrastructure of Serbia. This is because the military understood at the time that they were dealing with another dog-wagging episode, this time to take the Juanita Broaddrick story off the front pages of our newspapers, which they could not possibly ask any of their soldiers or airmen to risk injury or death over.

And so they tried bombing from 25,000 - 30,000' for a few weeks and then, when they realized they could not hurt the Serbian military from Earth orbit, they embarked upon a campaign of what you would normally call war crimes, targetting Serbian civilians and civilian infrastructure hundreds of miles from any legitimate military target. There was immense suffering amongst the civilian population



Iraq by way of contrast appears to be the most righteous use of American military power since WW-II. Civilian casualties appear to have been fewer than the regime which we got rid of would have killed for fun and sport in the same time period, and the people of Iraq are still celebrating.

In general, American military personnel knew they were fighting for a righteous cause, and had no qualms about going into harm's way for it, and this very willingness to face danger on the part of our soldiers spared the civilian population from all but a statistically insignificant amount of harm. In fact once the Iraqis realized that only baathist targets were being hit, large numbers of them began going about their normal business as if nothing unusual were happening while a war war going on around them and, for the most part, they were safe doing that, or at least AS safe as normal life had been under the baathists.

In other words, the understanding by our military that Iraq was a rightous cause and their willingness to go into harms way for it, aside from everything else, protected the Iraqi civilian population.

That is the difference between just wars and unjust wars, and the manner in which soldiers conduct themselves when fighting for righteous as opposed to base causes.
0 Replies
 
swolf
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2004 09:45 pm
ebrown_p wrote:


At the core of Moishe's post is the premise that Islam promotes violence. This is, at its core, both ridiculous and offensive.


It's only offensive to somebody who doesn't read or has been living in a cave for the last 20 years. I-slam is said to have bloody borders. Basically, you've got something like 30 significant trouble spots in the world today, all but about four or five of them involving I-slam. Anywhere in the world where muslims border non-muslims and the muslims aren't outnumbered at least 9 - 1, you've got the same problem, always the poor muslims being descriminated against and not allowed their natural right to impose sharia law on the rest of the territory.

In fact a really reasonable possible solution to the two really big problem spots in the world which DON'T involve muslims might just be to import a few dozen breeding pairs of muslims into Taiwan and Korea. In 30 years the problem with muslims would be so bad they'd forget about the other problems in those two places.

Quote:

Groups use violence when they feel desparate, or when they feel justified because they feel their cause is so important...


Sorry, but that's outright rubbish. Nobody does anything like 9-11 because of any cause; people do that sort of thing because they're ****ed up, defective people.

The one group of people in the entire world which might have any sort of a cause for doing such a thing in recent memory would be Serbs, and you just don't read about Serbs doing that sort of thing. Try asking yourself why that might be.
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2004 06:47 am
Quote:
As with most of this type of extreme rhetoric, it makes no sense at its core.
To back up his case, he invokes a wide range of disparate causes including.
- The nationalistic struggle to end the occupation of Palestine.
- The Iraqi Baathists who until recently supported a secular government.
- Iraqis who are, for many reasons including nationalism, are resisting a military occupation.
- The Chechen struggle for independance from Russian rule.
- The legitimate theocratic government of Iran.
- The Islamist search for a religious Muslim state represented by Al Qaeda.
Of these six, only the last one is anything like what he is portraying, yet he lumps them all together as if Arabs Muslims are some kind of monolithic group.
Of course there are many movements that use similar tactics that Moishe conveniently leaves out of his rhetoric. You already mentioned the Christian bombers here... but there are much better examples...
- Drug Cartels in Columbia.
- Guerillas in Peru.
- American Supported militias in Niceragua, El Salvador and Guatemala in the 80's.
- The IRA related group.
- Extremist Israeli Settlers on the West Bank.
- The Lords Resistance Army in Africa.
At the core of Moishe's post is the premise that Islam promotes violence. This is, at its core, both ridiculous and offensive.
Groups use violence when they feel desparate, or when they feel justified because they feel their cause is so important, or their enemy is so "evil". Often religion is used as a way of motivating people to act, but brutality is not unique to any religion, nor is it caused by any religion.


ebrown,

You seem to believe that Islam is unique on this little planet of ours in that it Does NOT promote violence.
You keep on pointing out historical examples which I agree with, as I do with much of the above.
Islam is not monolithic.
And, Islamic Fascist Death Cults do promote violence.
Your solution seems to be to ignore that fact.
This ignorance can only result in more massive death and destruction against Islam as a whole.
I, personally, think that that is not a good idea.

To wit:

It took about three hundred years of corruption; murderous civil war; state imposed religion; forced conversions; rebellion; destruction and much bad...

before the Romans finally crushed the Jewish state of Israel. About 1/3 of the population of Israel was killed between 66 CE and 135 CE; about 1/3 was sold into slavery and the other 1/3 ran away.

Israel was basically depopulated.

Judaism was hardly a monolithic entity at that time. It was always a minority that murdered and oppressed and rebelled and destroyed. But, nonetheless, all Jews paid the ultimate price.

Judaism then underwent a massive reform which has lasted until this day, but they paid a rather harsh penalty for their intransigence. Hundreds of years of death and trouble resulting in utter destruction is a big price to pay.

The history of Christianity is well known by most.
Christianity took even longer, about a thousand years, beginning with the Crusades up through the Holocaust, to create widespread havoc and murder on this planet.
In the end, Christianity also reformed itself. But it cost centuries of lives and destruction.

The prospect of laying waste to Dar Islam does not fill me with glee. But, thus far, that is the only historical solution.

There's got to be a better way.
0 Replies
 
swolf
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2004 07:06 am
Crusades: A Justified Defensive Struggle
Moishe3rd wrote:

The history of Christianity is well known by most. Christianity took even longer, about a thousand years, beginning with the Crusades up through the Holocaust, to create widespread havoc and murder on this planet. In the end, Christianity also reformed itself. But it cost centuries of lives and destruction.


I hate to have be disillusioning people on such a regular basis, but...

Much if not the overwhelming bulk of what we read about the history of Christianity is distorted beyond recognition. For starters, between the fall of Rome and the rise of workable gunpowder weapons and armies trained in their use, i.e. for most of its history, Christian Europe was at a marked military disadvantage vis a vis the East. Europeans simply never learned or mastered the most major martial skills of the middle ages, i.e. the manufacture of the composite bow, the skill to shoot a bow off horseback including at a dead run, and the effective use of cavalry in order to carry out military campaigns over vast distances, which meant travelling with more than one horse per man, travelling light, and living off the land. The enemies which Europe faced over those centuries, Huns, Avars, Magyars, Kipchaks, Mongols, and Turks all understood these kinds of things.

Moreover, the crusades turn out to be an entirely justified defensive struggle on the part of Christendom:

http://www.crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm

Try reading some of that before making any further statements about Christianity taking 1000 years to civilize itself.
0 Replies
 
swolf
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2004 07:17 am
Moishe3rd wrote:
Quote:

The prospect of laying waste to Dar Islam does not fill me with glee. But, thus far, that is the only historical solution.

There's got to be a better way.


I could come a bit closer to sympathizing with that part of your statement.

Americans are used to thinking in terms of technological solutions and there is no technological solution to the suicide killer.

This one might well require an attitude adjustment on the part of the west inasmuch as getting mean enough about the whole thing could well be the solution. There are two general kinds of things we could in theory be doing which would go a very long way towards making people think before doing those kinds of things.

One would be to target the suicide killer's immediate family and possibly his entire village for retribution. While many would view that as group punishments for individual crimes, the evidence plainly indicates that most if not all of those things are group crimes.

The second would be to ensure that the perpetrator (or what remains of him or her) of such an act is buried in such a way as to preclude any possibility of entry into slammite paradise; use your own imagination...
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2004 07:29 am
Quote:
Moreover, the crusades turn out to be an entirely justified defensive struggle on the part of Christendom:
http://www.crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm
Try reading some of that before making any further statements about Christianity taking 1000 years to civilize itself.


Oy vey izmir.
I hate arguing with people I basically agree with, however.....

I was referring to Christendom's massive repression; civil wars; forced conversions; bloody murders; injustice towards anyone defined as a heretic; etcetera.

The Crusades against Islam to RESTORE the "Holy Land" to Christendom were, of course justified from a political and theological point of view.
The barbaric murders of entire Jewish communities; the entire Christian Albigensian community; the sack of Christian Constantinople; etcetera; etcetera; were not justified and were criminal.

Christianity went on to give us the Thirty Years War in northern / Germanic Europe which was responsible for more civilian deaths, proportionate to the population, than any European war, including WWII.

Christianity gave the brutal Spanish conquests of the New World; and the Spanish Inquistion which, incidentally, was mainly aimed at Christians (among them Jews that had converted).

The list is rather long and I assumed that people would understand this.

I am not condemning Christianity; just as I was not condemning Judaism; just as I am not condemning Islam.

I am simply pointing out that the penalty for violent religious intolerance has always, ultimately, been death and destruction towards the intolerant.
0 Replies
 
swolf
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2004 07:29 am
Moishe3rd wrote:
Quote:


The history of Christianity is well known by most.
Christianity took even longer, about a thousand years, beginning with the Crusades up through the Holocaust, to create widespread havoc and murder on this planet.
In the end, Christianity also reformed itself. But it cost centuries of lives and destruction.


One other little thing here which you might want to notice...

The horrific events of the 20'th century, including the holocaust against the Jews and the larger holocaust against Christian Russia perpetrated by the communists were not caused by Christianity. As long as Christianity held sway over Europe there had been bad blood between Christians and Jews but there had never been a holocaust of any sort.

WW-II in particular was caused by an out of control arms race and by out of control ideology, and that ideology begins with Charles Darwin and not Christ.

Aside from ideology, the dynamics of the European arms race reached insane proportions in the late 20s and early 30s when new generations of tanks and aircraft started becoming outmoded at five year intervals. You had three basic choices:

1. Do what the British tried to do, i.e. prototype new generations of hardware without actually adopting it, and hope to hang on for two years while catching up if a real war broke out.

2. Do what the French and Poles did, i.e. totally modernize their militaries without getting into major wars. The cost of that was national bankruptcy and socialist takeover.

3. Do what Hitler did and try to catch a wave and ride it. The day after you become king of the whole world or kha khan, how much you owe the banks won't matter.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2004 07:30 am
Kicky,

Thank you for you kind words.

However, Moshe and swolf make my argument much better than I can.

Read their posts carefully. Moishe is romaticizing the crusades and seems to be advocating a full relgious war. Swolf is talking about retributions against familiies and villages.

I don't think I will ever convince them as they are to focussed on their personal holy wars.

I believe any rational person will see the danger this type of rhetoric poses.

The most dangerous people are people who believe so strongly in their cause, they can justify barbaric acts. The rhetoric of Moishe and swolf is very similar to the rhetoric that the 9/11 terrorists used to justify their act.

I hope that the US can see past this type of hate and fear-mongering.
0 Replies
 
swolf
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2004 07:42 am
There are, of course, a couple of other approaches open to the west.

There isn't really that much difference between $45/barrel and $60/barrel for oil. A sufficiently resolute government could in theory simply shut the door on all imports of oil this very day, and put the development of our thousand-year supply of shale oil on a war footing. Life would be chaotic for about a year, but after three years the price of shale oil would come down to $35/barrel, the money would stay in the US, and OPEC and AlQuaeda would both starve.

As individuals in fact, there are things we can start doing this very day without waiting for governments to catch up. Park that van or SUV unless doing something which positively requires it. Do not own a van or SUV as an only vehicle. Use some little Honda Civic, Dodge Neon, or motorcycle to run errands.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2004 09:00 am
Swolf, you amaze me.

Your last post was perfectly reasonable. I agree with it completely. I didn't think that was possible.

Should we call this effort "The war on SUV's"? Wink
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2004 09:11 am
Quote:
Read their posts carefully. Moishe is romaticizing the crusades and seems to be advocating a full relgious war.


Although I seem to be speaking to a vaccum here, ebrown, you do make me ponder the length to which a man might strive to remain forever locked within his preconceptions.
It is somewhat educational.
If you only respond to what is visceral and reject the reason, then what hope is there for those who wish to viscerally vicerate anyone who disagrees with them?

However, I'll bite. How am I romanticizing the Crusades?
0 Replies
 
Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2004 12:36 pm
Moishe, in my opinion - as some tend to explain here - is that it is very simple to link Islamic fundamentalists with the need for an Islamic reform. A group like the Shiite Alevites could already be considered as having had this reform. I do think that many conflicts in which Muslims are involved are not directly based on Islam, but on other factors. Look at Chechnya. The Chechens are Muslim, but that does not make them fighting an Islamic cause. There are a lot of Wahhabists in the area who fight against the Russians. And do you know which group hates the Wahhabists the most in Chechnya?

The Chechens. Not the Russians.

I know you see things on the news concerning the rising of fundamentalist Islam. The 'solution' you want should not be found in Islam though, in my humble opinion. You can better search for a 'solution' in mostly social, internal affairs.
0 Replies
 
swolf
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2004 01:44 pm
Actually, there's one other little thing about oil which the world needs to understand....


http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38645
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2004 02:14 pm
swolf and Moishe3rd,

I disagree with many arguments you make here (swolf, especially that stuff about Christianity throughout History) but you two are great reads, I hope you stick around.
0 Replies
 
swolf
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2004 02:59 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
swolf and Moishe3rd,

I disagree with many arguments you make here (swolf, especially that stuff about Christianity throughout History) but you two are great reads, I hope you stick around.


I don't think there's anbything wrong with my analysis of Western military history or the claim that Europe was at a perpetual disadvantage from the fall of Rome until they had usable gunpowder weapons. Basically the only real wars which Europe fought against the East in medieval times were defensive struggles.

Moreover, the single thing which motivated the great age of European expansion over water was the destruction of the Golden Horde and the trade routes which the Mongols had reopened by Tamerlane, a muslim religious fanatic. In other words, those routes had been shut for centuries and then, all of a sudden for a period of about 150 years, you had open routes all the way from Europe to China, and Europeans learned that there was more to be done with food than just put salt on it, and then it got shut down.

Europeans naturally wren't going to go back to dog-food and started sailing around Africa to get to India, and the rest is history.

One other thing about Tamerlane and his immediate descendants aside from starting the age of European expansion, if you REALLY want to read horror stories about militarily backwards peoples being abused to the maximum extent possible, try reading about the muslim conquest of India.
0 Replies
 
swolf
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2004 04:01 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
swolf and Moishe3rd,

I disagree with many arguments you make here (swolf, especially that stuff about Christianity throughout History) but you two are great reads, I hope you stick around.


The ultimate weapon (which Europeans never learned how to make) from about 400 AD to about 1500 AD:

http://www.grozerarchery.com
0 Replies
 
 

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