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How To Solve The Problem Of Terrorist Islam?

 
 
Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2004 07:03 am
swolf wrote:
Actually, there's one other little thing about oil which the world needs to understand....

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38645


Interesting article I have to say!
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2004 08:22 am
Quote:
I know you see things on the news concerning the rising of fundamentalist Islam. The 'solution' you want should not be found in Islam though, in my humble opinion. You can better search for a 'solution' in mostly social, internal affairs.


Rick d'Israeli,
The problem is, the common thread throughout the violence and destruction in today's world, and yesterday's world, if you analyze it since the fall of the Soviet Union, is Islam.
Islamic Fascist Death Cults (as opposed to ordinary Muslims DISTINCTION!!!) have been responsible for the massive violence and disruption of the "status quo" for the last 15 years.
Calling it poverty; or social conditions; or political affairs; or ethnographics; etc., does not remove the Islamic factor from the equation.
As I pointed out with Christianity, the fundemental problem was fascist Christians who believed in Killing For Christ, not the King of Sweden trying to take territory (30 Years War); or the Crusaders trying to free Jerusalem.
We have recovered from most of the fascist religious (including Judaism) cults, but.....
There is still a major set of True Believers out there who will use their poverty or statelessness or religious morays or political aims or whatever to Kill for Allah.
This is not good.
0 Replies
 
Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2004 08:35 am
I agree with you that there are Muslim terrorists. I agree there should change something. I do not agree with the fact that the solution should be found inside Islam. Because they are Muslim, does not say they act in accordance of Islam or with the approval of the Muslim world, nor do their actions say anything about the state Islam is in. I totally recognize the distinction that you made. But again, you make it seem like a one-religion-problem. Hello, Nigeria? Hello, Ambon? Hello, Christian anti-abortion USA? Hello, West Bank settlers? Do you think we still need a Christian reform, a Jewish reform or any other reform in other religions? I guess not (as you pointed out). I think too these other religions don't need any reform. The point is, that you look at the things that threaten YOU, as a Westerner. This is what the Western media reports about - logical.

But trust me, it are not only Muslim extremists who give Islam a bad name. There are also other extremists who give their religion a bad name. But you don't hear about them. And from that point of view, it's easy to see Islam as a big threat and yell for an Islamic reform.
0 Replies
 
swolf
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2004 11:51 am
Moishe3rd wrote:


The problem is, the common thread throughout the violence and destruction in today's world, and yesterday's world, if you analyze it since the fall of the Soviet Union, is Islam.
Islamic Fascist Death Cults (as opposed to ordinary Muslims DISTINCTION!!!) have been responsible for the massive violence and disruption of the "status quo" for the last 15 years.



Then again, there still are parts of the world in which I-slam is being promoted the old fashioned way, not by "islamofascists" or a few "bad apples" or part of the ten percent of anything, but rather by the official policy of slammite governments.

Joseph Farah notes:
Quote:


The genocidal ethnic cleansing in Sudan is one of the great under-reported stories of the last 10 years.

The fanatical Muslim Arabs who dominate the government in Khartoum - monsters akin to Afghanistan's Taliban - are responsible for the deaths of at least 1 million Sudanese.

The government encourages armed Arab militias to ride into black villages, on horseback or camelback, terrorizing unarmed civilians, kidnapping children, enslaving those they can carry away and raping young girls before leaving them for dead.

One 13-year-old victim survived to tell her horror story of the "rape camps" set up purely to terrorize the black Christians, animists and even some Muslims, in hopes they will vacate their homes and land so they can be seized as part of Islam's long march south through Africa.

"I saw many people killed, then I was grabbed by two men on horses wearing Sudan army uniforms," Ilham Isaak Abdullah told a Western reporter last week. "They tied me to a tree and raped me all night. I became very ill and fell down. They thought I died, so they left me."

Unable to walk and barely conscious, the young teen crawled out of what is being described as a "rape camp" in the northern province of Darfur.

Abdullah is one of countless girls and women who have been subjected to this systematic campaign of rape-terror, according to human-rights groups monitoring Sudan.

One of these "rape camps," they say, is 10 miles outside of Abu Lehah. "When we arrived in Abu Lehah, we saw hundreds of women unable to walk," says Asha Abdara Haman. "Many girls were under 15 and couldn't walk. We carried them for 16 days."

That's how long it took to take them some 125 miles to Chad where they could safely received medical attention. It would be foolhardy to seek out any help from Khartoum, which continues to promote ethnic cleansing and genocide against the black population - particularly targeted against non-Muslims, though not exclusively.

Haman has first-hand experience with the rape camps. She and her 17-year-old sister, Radiya, were taken by the Muslim Arabs and held as sex slaves for two days.

"Five to six people raped each of us," she said. "They did everything they wanted with us. Our condition was horrible."

The rape camps are well-organized operations.

"There were 35 women taken and they split us up, one for each group of (Muslim Arabs)," said Haman. Depending on the number of women captured, five or six militiamen may "share" one of their victims. If more are captured, each militiaman may have his own sex slave.

It is uncertain whether some of the women are actually allowed to escape as a means of spreading terror throughout their communities. Though, cultural traditions in the region often cause the women to be silent about their victimization.

"In our culture, it is a shame, and women will hide this in their hearts so that the men do not hear about it," said one refugee woman.

It is tempting to see Khartoum's war against its own people as one exclusively motivated by religion - Islam against non-Muslims. However, there is also a strong racist character to the slaughter. Muslim blacks who show anything but subservience to the extremist demands of the Khartoum government are treated as harshly as the non-Muslims.

While the New York Times and most Western media report dutifully on a phony peace deal signed between the country's Islamist government and Christian resistance, the terror continues unabated in regions like Darfur. While the U.S. State Department says the human-rights situation in Sudan is improving, the killing machine in Khartoum lives on.

And while Americans fight on several fronts in a war on Islamist terrorism, Sudan should serve as an illustration for all of us as to just what this global war is all about.

Instead, the pure evil in Sudan continues. And the world sees it not.
0 Replies
 
swolf
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jun, 2004 11:54 am
Rick d'Israeli wrote:


But trust me, it are not only Muslim extremists who give Islam a bad name. There are also other extremists who give their religion a bad name. But you don't hear about them.



You think maybe that might be because the others don't fly airplanes into skyscrapers and perpetrate suicide massacres?
0 Replies
 
Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2004 02:51 am
Quote:
Rick d'Israeli wrote:

But trust me, it are not only Muslim extremists who give Islam a bad name. There are also other extremists who give their religion a bad name. But you don't hear about them.


You think maybe that might be because the others don't fly airplanes into skyscrapers and perpetrate suicide massacres?


Could well be.
0 Replies
 
Ionesco
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2004 12:34 pm
ECONOMICS
I strongly believe that the problems in the Middle-East are imfluenced by economics. The western world imposes its one sided capitalism (aka neo-imperialism) and dominance on the rest of the world. They are poor, starving, and dominated by a small elite who is supported by us, and we wonder how come the rest of the world is mad at us. I said the western world because in opposition to many activists I don't blame the US alone, because I believe that this world system is also imposed by Canada (I'm Canadian), France, Britain, Spain... Blaming solely Mister Bush or Washington is a mistake. Anyways, I think that it is an economic problem and that we better do something about it. If we want that crazineszs from hapening, we better work things out, because I can't see this system of neo-imperialism perduring.
0 Replies
 
swolf
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 12:17 am
Re: ECONOMICS
Ionesco wrote:
I strongly believe that the problems in the Middle-East are imfluenced by economics. The western world imposes its one sided capitalism (aka neo-imperialism) and dominance on the rest of the world. They are poor, starving, and dominated by a small elite who is supported by us, and we wonder how come the rest of the world is mad at us. I said the western world because in opposition to many activists I don't blame the US alone, because I believe that this world system is also imposed by Canada (I'm Canadian), France, Britain, Spain... Blaming solely Mister Bush or Washington is a mistake. Anyways, I think that it is an economic problem and that we better do something about it. If we want that crazineszs from hapening, we better work things out, because I can't see this system of neo-imperialism perduring.


The most interesting statistic reloated to the middle east, to me at least, is the one that says that with all the oil, average income in Saudi Arabia is around $5K - $6K/yr while, with no resources whatsoever other than intelligence and a willingness to work for a living, average income in Israel is around $22K.

My advice to poor, starving, dominated-by-a-small-elite muslims (particularly in Saudi Arabia) who want to succeed in the world would be to:

  • Stop feeling sorry for yourselves.
  • Stop wasting time, energy, and money on terrorism. The same efforts directed along reasonable lines of endeavor would do you and the world more good.
  • Stop studying Islam, islamism, the history of islam, islammic studies etc. etc. in school and start studying real subjects and skills which the world needs.
  • Stop marrying sisters and girl cousins (even successful nomads like the Mongols in the middle ages understood the reason for this one)...
  • Stop holding grudges any longer than about five years.
  • Stop worrying about Israel and find a place in the muslim world for the damned "palestinians". By the "muslim world", I mean the gigantic swath of territory between the wall of China and the West coast of Africa and tens of degrees of lattitude north and south, as opposed to the tiny sliver of land called Israel which most people have difficulty finding on maps. I mean, it's just real hard for most people to believe that you found room for tens of millions of Pakistanis but can't find some place in all that land to put the palis.
  • Publically renounce the concept of region of peace/region of war and learn to tolerate other peoples and other religions.
  • Learn to treat women in a rational manner and as human beings and friends rather than property.
  • Outlaw slavery in muslim lands. Christians outlawed it 140 years ago.
  • Renounce efforts to colonize other nations through demographics and/or to spread islam in the manner in which it is being spread in places like Sudan.


Do all of these things, and you will prosper and Islam might last another few hundred years. Ignore all of these suggestions and my guess would be that Islam won't last another 30 years starting from now.
0 Replies
 
Ionesco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 01:07 am
Re: ECONOMICS
swolf wrote:
Ionesco wrote:
I strongly believe that the problems in the Middle-East are imfluenced by economics. The western world imposes its one sided capitalism (aka neo-imperialism) and dominance on the rest of the world. They are poor, starving, and dominated by a small elite who is supported by us, and we wonder how come the rest of the world is mad at us. I said the western world because in opposition to many activists I don't blame the US alone, because I believe that this world system is also imposed by Canada (I'm Canadian), France, Britain, Spain... Blaming solely Mister Bush or Washington is a mistake. Anyways, I think that it is an economic problem and that we better do something about it. If we want that crazineszs from hapening, we better work things out, because I can't see this system of neo-imperialism perduring.


The most interesting statistic reloated to the middle east, to me at least, is the one that says that with all the oil, average income in Saudi Arabia is around $5K - $6K/yr while, with no resources whatsoever other than intelligence and a willingness to work for a living, average income in Israel is around $22K.

My advice to poor, starving, dominated-by-a-small-elite muslims (particularly in Saudi Arabia) who want to succeed in the world would be to:

  • Stop feeling sorry for yourselves.
  • Stop wasting time, energy, and money on terrorism. The same efforts directed along reasonable lines of endeavor would do you and the world more good.
  • Stop studying Islam, islamism, the history of islam, islammic studies etc. etc. in school and start studying real subjects and skills which the world needs.
  • Stop marrying sisters and girl cousins (even successful nomads like the Mongols in the middle ages understood the reason for this one)...
  • Stop holding grudges any longer than about five years.
  • Stop worrying about Israel and find a place in the muslim world for the damned "palestinians". By the "muslim world", I mean the gigantic swath of territory between the wall of China and the West coast of Africa and tens of degrees of lattitude north and south, as opposed to the tiny sliver of land called Israel which most people have difficulty finding on maps. I mean, it's just real hard for most people to believe that you found room for tens of millions of Pakistanis but can't find some place in all that land to put the palis.
  • Publically renounce the concept of region of peace/region of war and learn to tolerate other peoples and other religions.
  • Learn to treat women in a rational manner and as human beings and friends rather than property.
  • Outlaw slavery in muslim lands. Christians outlawed it 140 years ago.
  • Renounce efforts to colonize other nations through demographics and/or to spread islam in the manner in which it is being spread in places like Sudan.


Do all of these things, and you will prosper and Islam might last another few hundred years. Ignore all of these suggestions and my guess would be that Islam won't last another 30 years starting from now.



I can't believe that you just posted that, I seriously can't believe it.

(1) Your suggestions are extremely unrealistic, racist, and discriminatory towards arabs and muslim. You tend to generalize, which is always a bad thing to do when you try to look at the world or at geo-politics.

(2) You can't compare Saodi Arabia with Israel: Israel had TONS of international support, more than you could even think of, and a boatload of prominent and rich people coming from Europe immigrating. For sure it's going to be a richer country, but think about it, Israel really is, and only is, an AMERICAN COLONY in an arab land.

Look man, I'm not going to take the time to convince or try to convice you, as I believe that it's be too long. So seriously, go and take a book or something and drop the american pink glasses.

Alors à la prochaine mon ami...
0 Replies
 
swolf
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 01:44 am
Re: ECONOMICS
Ionesco wrote:


I can't believe that you just posted that, I seriously can't believe it.



Believe it.

Quote:


(1) Your suggestions are extremely unrealistic, racist, and discriminatory towards arabs and muslim.


It's overdue.

Quote:

(2) You can't compare Saodi Arabia with Israel: Israel had TONS of international support, more than you could even think of, and a boatload of prominent and rich people coming from Europe immigrating.


You're comparing the accumulated wealth of having been the world's main oil supply for the last 50 years with whatever the sorry refugees from the holocaust had on their backs after being 100% looted by the nazis and all the wealth which all those rich jews from the CCCP and surrounding middle eastern countries brought in with them and claiming that the later should dwarf the former, right?

Think real hard, and see if you can't figure out why that rings hollow to most people.

Quote:

For sure it's going to be a richer country, but think about it, Israel really is, and only is, an AMERICAN COLONY in an arab land.


Israel is nobody's colony and it sits on land which nobody was using 100 years ago. Mark Twain described the holy land as basically a ghost town in the late 1800s, fewer people living in Jerusalem than lived in Dodge City after Dodge City became a ghost town.

And it isn't going anywhere.
0 Replies
 
Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 02:15 am
swolf wrote:
You're comparing the accumulated wealth of having been the world's main oil supply for the last 50 years with whatever the sorry refugees from the holocaust had on their backs after being 100% looted by the nazis and all the wealth which all those rich jews from the CCCP and surrounding middle eastern countries brought in with them and claiming that the later should dwarf the former, right?


And onethird of all foreign aid the USA spends on a yearly basis....
0 Replies
 
swolf
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 02:54 am
Rick d'Israeli wrote:

And onethird of all foreign aid the USA spends on a yearly basis.


Which simply can't possibly account for an averge income differential of 22 - 6 versus the nation with all the oil wealth. Israelis clearly are making it on their own over there, and that thought seems to just fry a lot of people.
0 Replies
 
Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 03:00 am
Swolf, according to the WRMEA (Washington Report On Middle East Affairs) in 1997 the total benefit per Israeli was $14,630.
0 Replies
 
Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 03:03 am
But don't get me wrong, I'm not totally disagreeing with you on the fact that Israel is making it on its own, I just wanted to point out that your

swolf wrote:
You're comparing the accumulated wealth of having been the world's main oil supply for the last 50 years with whatever the sorry refugees from the holocaust had on their backs after being 100% looted by the nazis and all the wealth which all those rich jews from the CCCP and surrounding middle eastern countries brought in with them and claiming that the later should dwarf the former, right?


..was not totally correct.
0 Replies
 
swolf
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 03:17 am
Rick d'Israeli wrote:
Swolf, according to the WRMEA (Washington Report On Middle East Affairs) in 1997 the total benefit per Israeli was $14,630.


If that were the case, nobody in Israel would have to work for a living at all.

http://www.antiquark.com/entropyzone/thumb/nobs-tn.jpg
0 Replies
 
Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 03:34 am
I didn't make it up if that is what you suggest.
0 Replies
 
swolf
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 04:49 am
Rick d'Israeli wrote:
I didn't make it up if that is what you suggest.


What I'm suggesting is that $14,630 times four would be just under $60K/yr for a family of four and there just aren't a whole lot of places on Earth where a family of four can't live quite comfortably on that.

If that's the case, then why does anybody in Israel work?
0 Replies
 
Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 05:41 am
Swolf: http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 07:30 am
Foreign aid to Israel is a non-starter.
Unless someone is actually suggesting that Israeli citizens actually receive $14,630 from US aid, cash in hand?
Rather than stating blanket figures, I suggest that you investigate where the money goes. Unlike, let's say Egypt or even the paltry sum that the PA receives, it does not go into Sharon's or any other government official's pocket. (Stop, please, yes of course someone siphons off illegal gains somewhere. But just as it isn't policy in Canada or Belgium, it isn't policy in Israel. It is policy in Egypt and Palestine. The point is moot.)
The aid does go into the government which Israel does use for about a billion different purposes including weapons and welfare. As does Egypt and the PA. The only difference is that in Egypt and the PA, it is taken as a matter of course that the first purpose of aid from other countries is to benefit the "ruling class." Whatever is left over (yes, it is the majority of the money... stop it.) is used for weapons and welfare.
It is a different system of cultural obligations.

The original contention that the Saudis get off their fat behinds and try to develop their country and their country's moral system with their vast oil wealth as compared to Israel's largely self-earned wealth, was an accurate criticism.

However, it is indeed a different culture.

The problem with Saudi Arabia, in a teeny tiny nutshell goes like this:

30,000 Saudis from the royal House of Saud, rule over 25 million people living in saudi Arabia.
The existence of Saudi Arabia as a country; the ownership of the oil; the organization of its government is totally and strictly designed to benefit the House of Saud - the 30,000 Saudis.
Saudi Arabia is an absolute (somewhat benevolent towards its populace) monarchy.
The House of Saud made a political and tribal alliance with the Wahhabist (the rejectionist, radical, new, intolerant, believers in death to all that disagree with their interpretation of Islam) Sunnis approximately 200 years ago.
The fortunes of the Sauds and the Wahhabis have been joined together in an unholy alliance since that time.
In that period of time the Saudi/Wahhabi alliance attacked the Ottoman Empire; attacked Egypt; slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Shia Muslims in northern Saudi Arabia/ southern Iraq; obliterated Shia holy sites (such as the tomb of Adam and Eve); and conquered Mecca and Medina by defeating the Hashemites (eventual rulers of Jordan and Iraq) who were considered the legitimate heirs of Mohammed.
The French and the British supported the Sauds and gave the Hashemites their own kingdoms as booby prizes out of "realpolitik" considerations.
Today's Saudi Arabia is a welfare state where no Saudi citizen has to work.
This has led to an extremely large indolent class which resents the wealth of the Saudis, but has no skills or ambitions to achieve their own fortunes.
This indolent, resentful population of Saudi males achieves their sense of identity by being an Islamic male in an strictly reactionary, intolerant Islamic kingdom.
Meanwhile, within the ruling Sauds, there is dissension in the ranks.
Those who have vast and unimaginable wealth and political dealings with the rest of the world have the time, knowledge and leisure to be aware of what modernity, capitalism and democracy have to offer.
However, the Sauds are inextricably bound together with the still extremely intolerant and radical Wahhabists. And there are still many of these 30,000 Sauds who agree with that particulary vicious interpretation of Islam.

So, what do they do?
Or, how do you solve the problem of Terrorist Islam?
0 Replies
 
swolf
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Jun, 2004 08:18 am
Moishe3rd wrote:


So, what do they do?
Or, how do you solve the problem of Terrorist Islam?


Lots of different ideas floating around on that one.

I can give you the gist of one plan which would almost certainly get rid of I-slam altogether, terrorist and otherwise, would involve no nuclear weapons or any use of the US military whatsoever for that matter, and would cost around $70 - $100 billion US: Simply provide every woman above the age of 15 in the muslim world with a decent quality 9mm semiautomatic pistol and about 100 rounds of wadcutter ammunition. A typical little KelTec carry pistol or something more or less like that would do and those are typically around $200.
0 Replies
 
 

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