The 'SOUL'. What is it?

@Frank Apisa,

Sure, you can say that you don't know. Always a safe answer.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Sure, you can say that you don't know. Always a safe answer.

Okay...since I do not know...I will select "I do not know."

Safe! And truthful.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Fair enough. I think they do exist. Many have been reported.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Fair enough. I think they do exist. Many have been reported.

And I think that to be fair also, Olivier.

A question, if I may:

How do any of the "mystical experiences" of which you have heard...

...tend to make the statement "I believe there are no gods" less than a blind guess?

I have not been able to conjure up a hypothetical "mystical experience" that does that job. I'd love to consider whatever it is you can come up with.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Obviously, mystical experiences tend to make the statement "I believe there ARE gods" something other than a blind guess. The person having the experience needs to interpret it, and I guess some people may just reject a vision as hallucination, while other may believe it genuine.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Obviously, mystical experiences tend to make the statement "I believe there ARE gods" something other than a blind guess. The person having the experience needs to interpret it, and I guess some people may just reject a vision as hallucination, while other may believe it genuine.

Okay...but you realize that I SPECIFICALLY limited our present conversation to the issue of "I believe there are NO gods"...and went way out of my way to highlight that limitation as much as possible.

The issue of "I believe there are gods" or more particularly "I believe there is A GOD" is something else...and certainly one I handle quite differently.

Throughout the years here in A2K and in Abuzz...whenever someone suggests they KNOW there is a GOD because of divine revelation or "mystical experience"...

...I essentially concede defeat.

I recognize and acknowledge there is no way I can logically counter that.

I can suggest the person asserting divine revelation MAY BE suffering delusion...but there is no way I can possibly show that to be the case.

I concede defeat by simply walking away from that conversation.

I've had to do it many times over the years, Olivier...MANY times, because these forums (fora, if you prefer) are filled with people whom GOD has favored with a divine revelation.

Once the person with whom I am speaking asserts KNOWLEDGE of GOD...I bow out.

In our conversation, however, things do not change. I am not speaking to the question of people who assert "I know there is a GOD." They are not saying "I believe there is a GOD"...they are saying, "I know there is a GOD."

The people who truly are saying "I believe there is a GOD"...who acknowledge that "belief and faith" are affirmations of something not known but "accepted"...ARE just blindly guessing...perhaps a little less "blind" than those who assert "I believe there are no gods"...but blindly guessing nonetheless. That is why they make such a big deal out of "belief and faith"...why they consider those things to be assets and a virtues of such great value.

We could discuss that more, Olivier, if you want to. But it would be nice to finally hear you say straightforwardly that you agree with me that the assertion "I believe there are no gods"...IS A BLIND GUESS.

Whata ya say?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

Okay...but you realize that I SPECIFICALLY limited our present conversation to the issue of "I believe there are NO gods"...and went way out of my way to highlight that limitation as much as possible.

You started with a contention that NEITHER the belief in gods nor the belief in no gods can be based on experience. Now we agree that in the (rare) case of mystic experiences, the former is not true. I will move to the latter now, but the reasoning is more elegant when both types of beliefs are considered. -- I like the symmetry of it.

Quote:

I essentially concede defeat.

Why? Any experience must be INTERPRETED before it can mean anything, and mystic experiences can be interpreted as hallucinations. That's my interpretation of such experiences, in any case. Sometimes our senses lie to us.

Now for the issue that interests you most: the belief in no gods. I have already pointed out that the experience of immense evil -- eg the Holocaust -- and the absence of God in it, can lead one to doubt God. Many people lost faith then. And honestly, I don't care much about a god(s) who lets this sorts of things happen.

I suppose it boils down to: what do you expect from gods; how do you define the term. If gods are kind overseers and helpers in our live... They didn't show up when millions of innocents were being butchered in the camps. If gods are morally-neutral forces of nature such as gravity or electricity, they were there alright.

Sure enough, the experience of evil can be interpreted differently. Some rabbis have proposed the interpretation that Hitler was acting on behalf of, or as part of a larger scheme from God to gather 'his people' back in Palestine. A sort of anti Bar Kokhba war. I find the idea obscene.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
Okay...but you realize that I SPECIFICALLY limited our present conversation to the issue of "I believe there are NO gods"...and went way out of my way to highlight that limitation as much as possible.

You started with a contention that NEITHER the belief in gods nor the belief in no gods can be based on experience. Now we agree that in the (rare) case of mystic experiences, the former is not true. I will move to the latter now, but the reasoning is more elegant when both types of beliefs are considered. -- I like the symmetry of it.

For the first few posts on this issue I did start with a contention that ANY statements about the existence or non-existence of gods is a blind guess. I acknowledge that. The conversations was already so muddied, making the exception for people who supposedly have had private conversations with a god...or received private revelations from a god...seemed like over-kill.

But VERY EARLY ON...I recognized that you were going to focus on that area so you would not have to deal with the issue of "I believe there are no gods" can only be a blind guess...and every time you spoke to the issue...I correct it to be about "I believe there are no gods." I was VERY specific about that, Olivier.

Now, one of the things that must happen in all ethical debate is that when a point has been settled...it must be acknowledged as settled.

The issue that has been debated for the last 20 or so pages has been about "I believe there are no gods"...and my contention that the comment IS a blind guess using the word "believe" rather than "blind guess."

Before we go onto the more difficult question about whether or not the comment "I believe there is a GOD" is a blind guess also...I'd really like to see that you are able to acknowledge that I was right on this other issue.

Let's have it straight out, Olivier. Are we in agreement that the comment, "I believe there are no gods" can be nothing but a blind guess?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

When considering what I am asking for here, Olivier, you might want to think about what you just wrote here:

http://able2know.org/topic/215173-70#post-5800701

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Well, if you had acknowledged the possibility of mystical experience sooner, we would have moved to the experiential background for atheism sooner....

My argument on the experience of evil and the absence of God from the world is still to be answered. If mystical experiences are experiences, the lack of them is also an experience. Many people lost faith because God was just not up to their expectations in terms of world affairs (eg He allowed the Holocaust to happen). It boils down to what you expect from God, and how you define the notion.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Well, if you had acknowledged the possibility of mystical experience sooner, we would have moved to the experiential background for atheism sooner....

I did acknowledge the possibility of it as soon as it was brought up. I cannot acknowledge it as being so...BECAUSE I HAVE NEVER PERSONALLY EXPERIENCED IT. But I certainly can...AND HAVE...acknowledged that it is a possibility.

How many times do I have to say that?

FAct is, I have acknowledged the possibility of mystical experiences for many, many years...written threads on it and commented on it dozens of times. Here is one...there are others:

http://able2know.org/topic/192088-1

Quote:

My argument on the experience of evil and the absence of God from the world is still to be answered.

Evil can exist whether there is a GOD or not. There is nothing that requires a GOD to do away with evil. It may well provide a much needed service for human conduct.

And how can you logically declare there is an "absence of God" from the world?

Quote:

If mystical experiences are experiences, the lack of them is also an experience. Many people lost faith because God was just not up to their expectations in terms of world affairs (eg He allowed the Holocaust to happen). It boils down to what you expect from God, and how you define the notion.

Well into all that, Olivier...but how about you first acknowledge what I asked to acknowledge earlier...so that I can be confident that you can do it without first wanting the entire universe to come to an end.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I wasn't around here in June 2012. If you want to acknowledge one of my points, just say so clearly. That will save us a lot of wasted time.

Quote:

There is nothing that requires a GOD to do away with evil.

I suppose it depends what you call a "god". People have clear expectations of their god: he should offer protection, or justice, or victory in war (that was a big part of YHWH's job a some point in time). When the god does not deliver, they stop to believe. And they do so based on experience.

Now -- and exactly as was the case for mystical experience -- you can of course disagree with their interpretation of their own experience. You can say: gods may be immoral or absent; maybe they couldn't care less about the Holocaust or the Rwanda genocide; maybe they thought these genocides were necessary or useful. You can disagree all you want with the meaning they extract from their experience, but still, it is humanely possible to lose faith due to a life experience.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

I wasn't around here in June 2012. If you want to acknowledge one of my points, just say so clearly. That will save us a lot of wasted time.

I did.

I suspect the "wasted time" you speak of is actually the result of you trying to avoid having to acknowledge the obvious. (see below)

Quote:

Quote:
There is nothing that requires a GOD to do away with evil.

I suppose it depends what you call a "god". People have clear expectations of their god: he should offer protection, or justice, or victory in war (that was a big part of YHWH's job a some point in time). When the god does not deliver, they stop to believe. And they do so based on experience.

Now -- and exactly as was the case for mystical experience -- you can of course disagree with their interpretation of their own experience. You can say: gods may be immoral or absent; maybe they couldn't care less about the Holocaust or the Rwanda genocide; maybe they thought these genocides were necessary or useful. You can disagree all you want with the meaning they extract from their experience, but still, it is humanely possible to lose faith due to a life experience.

After you acknowledge in an unambiguous way that you agree with what I have been saying for over 20 pages in this thread...namely, that the comment "I believe there are no gods" is nothing more than a blind guess using the word "believe" to disguise that fact...we MAY go on to something else.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I honestly think you hold a simplistic view on this. It's not so clear cut. Human lives usually are not so compartimentalized. Faith (or lack of) and experiences are intertwined.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

I honestly think you hold a simplistic view on this. It's not so clear cut. Human lives usually are not so compartimentalized. Faith (or lack of) and experiences are intertwined.

Really!

So give me an example of an experience (including a non-experience) that would make the comment, "I believe there are no gods"...ANYTHING BUT A BLIND GUESS with the words "I believe..." substituted for the words "I blindly guess..."

Give me a hypothetical that makes that more than just a blind guess that there are no gods.

Make one up...if you can.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

I did already.

1 Reply

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

I did already.

No...you did not.

You merely stated that mystical non-experience is the same as mystical experience (apparently in the same way as being not pregnant is the same as being pregnant) ...and when I asked you how that mystical non-experience impacts on "I believe there are no gods" being a blind guess...you gave no coherent reply. The reason for that is that there is no coherent response.

If I were to ask you, "Give me an example of how a mystical experience could impact on 'I believe there IS A GOD'"...you would jump at that in a second.

You are evading...and all I can do is to enjoy watching you do it.

Which I am.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Imagine you believe in a kind, interventionist God, and you arrive at Auchwitz as an inmate. Try and imagine that, and try and imagine, if you can, how such hell on earth could test or even destroy your faith.

If you can't understand that, I'm sorry for you.

2 Replies

@Olivier5,

I have a better example. When my sister took care of her husband who suffered from alzheimer's and a heart attack for many years and praying to god to cure him, he finally passed away. My sister lost faith, and didn't attend church for about six months.

Today, she's married again, and going to church - and praying for me!

That's her belief and reality; she believes in her god.

0 Replies

@Olivier5,

Olivier5 wrote:

Imagine you believe in a kind, interventionist God, and you arrive at Auchwitz as an inmate. Try and imagine that, and try and imagine, if you can, how such hell on earth could test or even destroy your faith.

If you can't understand that, I'm sorry for you.

Let me say this loud...so that maybe you will allow it to get through the concrete in your head:

Yes...a person can "lose faith"...but that loss of faith does not make the statement "There are no gods" any less a blind guess.

Get with the program, Olivier.

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