Back to the Dem candidates:
Guess who's talking?
Quote:the entire first half of his speech builds to a crescendo of outrage over the ghastly living conditions of workers in the developing countries of Asia. "They live on the ground," he tells a group of Iowans gathered at a community center in the hamlet of Washington, pausing to scan their faces. "They live in the cardboard boxes that bring the products back to the United States." He begins to yell: "Raw sewage. You don't just have to go see it, you have to smell it. Raw, human sewage coming down the middle of the street and in the drainage ditch behind the boxes." His fists chop the air to punctuate a set of short sentences: "No water. No sewer. No electricity. No nothing! They live in worse conditions than most farm animals do in Iowa. It's nothing short of human exploitation for the profit of some corporations. ... We're going to stop human exploitation everywhere in the world."
Nimh,
Interesting. The politeness bit was Blatham's and, as you noted, I merely turned it on him. I find it remarkable to learn that, after the dismal example of Soviet Socialism, there is anyone left (besides Castro) who believes in all that communist/Trotskyite crap. If it must be, better in Europe than here.
I'm generally aware of the Social Democrat politics of Europe, but have the strong impression they are headed fast for a crisis of some sort as the relentless forces of declining working age populations, growing numbers of retirees, and international economic competition work on the rigid labor markets and social services that prevail on the continent. I'm waiting for the Dutch and German versions of Margaret Thatcher to appear. (The French & Belgians can sink for all I care.) Italy and Spain are not so much as you describe 'Europe'. The political textures of the emerging states in Central Europe may well turn out to be quite different from those that prevail in 'Old Europe'.
It is true that Latin American countries have generally been paralyzed between very right wing arch conservatives who usually oppose broad economic development, and various spinners of socialist fantasies. The awful results, of course, are all too evident. Argentina and Venezuela are perhaps the worst examples. Only Chile has pursued a modern moderately conservative course, guided by some very smart University of Chicago types. Their economic and political successes speak very well for themselves, and set Chile quite apart from the rest of the continent.
I have no wish to tell Europeans how to run their affairs, and I am pleased when they are circumspect with regard to ours. I often hear reference to the idea that, because the United States is so powerful and because what it does affects so many outside the country, others have an interest and a right to comment on and even influence our political actions and choices. While I accept the interest and the comments, I don't accept the notion of outside rights to 'influence' our political choices. If others want to see the world turn out in a certain way, let them exert the effort required to achieve it. In the first place we aren't all that powerful, and there is no shortage of potential rivals biding their time. In the second Europe needs to find its own voice and decide on something to be 'for' in a constructive way, as opposed to merely being our perpetual critic.
nimh wrote:Back to the Dem candidates:
Guess who's talking?
That was Dick Gephardt at the Florida Democratic Convention, yesterday.
John Kerry and Wesley Clark also tore Dubya a new one.
I missed Dean's speech.
Hey georgeob1, I had written a long response to your interesting post, but then thought better of posting it here - cause it does go very far away from the thread's "Dem candidates" topic.
But I'm not giving up on the topic - just moving it! I'll copy your post here to the "Following the EU" thread, and add my response there, instead.
Will you (all) follow me?
Response on europe, social-democracy etc on the "Following the EU" thread
PDiddie wrote:nimh wrote:Back to the Dem candidates:
Guess who's talking?
That was Dick Gephardt at the Florida Democratic Convention, yesterday.
Actually, that was Gephardt in the hamlet of Washington, Iowa ...
guess he recycles his speeches ;-)
nimh
that was an absolutely delicious post...
george
As I suspected, though a Catholic, and a card-carrying Republican, you would actually support R and D on cloning technologies IF they were limited to producing battalions of autocratic, asexual english shopkeepers' daughters. I can see it all now...
Stationary satellite camera zooms down towards the US midwest...closer...mountain ranges appear, then cities and roads...they grow and fall away to sides of screen as we approach the heart of America...desolate...unpopulated...brown
A helicopter, black, flying silent and low, barely skimming the miles of concertina wire and slavering red-eyed dobermans that are leaping skyward to bite the chopper. It drops, and settles beside a long low building. Paul Wolfowitz and the CEO of The Beef Producers of America alight, scarves and hair whipping in the downwash. Quick shake of hands with the Navy officer in charge, then they are ushered inside the long building.
Wolfowitz has been here before and knows what to expect, and squints as he enters. Sort of a combination of high tech grow op, factory farm, Dickens, and Republican Convention. The dim light, the long long table with 300 bowls of gruel and 301 little Thatcherclonettes sitting ramrod straight, unsmiling, all wearing dark grey tweed coveralls (made in China), loudly singing a martial tune as they salute a huge photograph of Hayek. The singing stops...panedamonium! Mousey-blonde hair yanking, eyeball scratching, chair bashing pandemonium! Then slowly, quiet. A single clonette has no gruel. 300 right hands point rigidly to one corner of the room. We see a hole in the floor, and above it, a sign..."Failure". The clonette, head bowed, dutifully walks to it and falls out of site. Awful sounds. New gruel is being made.
Quote:Kerry, Lieberman top environmental scores
http://desmoinesregister.com/news/stories/c5903220/22955131.html
A national organization that tracks politicians' voting records on environmental issues rates John Kerry and Joe Lieberman as the strongest Democratic presidential candidates.
Dennis Kucinich is a close third with the League of Conservation Voters, the political arm of major environmental groups.
The league ranked all three at 90 percent or above on its scorecard based on whether the candidates agreed with the environmental groups' political stands. The scoring is based on voting records, interviews, a questionnaire and policy statements.
The league also gives letter grades to the sitting president. At midterm, President Bush earned the group's first "F" grade since it began its ratings in 1984. [..]
The League of Conservation Voters decided that any of the nine Democratic candidates would perform more to the environment groups' liking than Bush, said League President Deb Callahan.
Further info from League of Conservation Voters (plus ranking of candidates)
here
The world has lost a good man.
Quote:Senator Paul Simon Dies
POSTED: 2:41 p.m. CST December 9, 2003
UPDATED: 3:04 p.m. CST December 9, 2003
CHICAGO -- Former U.S. senator and former presidential candidate Paul Simon reportedly has died a day after he underwent heart surgery Monday at St. John's Hospital in Springfield, Ill.
Simon's daughter confirmed his death at St. John's Hospital in Springfield, according to Peter Alexander, the law school dean at Southern Illinois University, where Simon started a public policy institute after his retirement.
According to news reports, Simon endorsed Dean from his deathbed.
RIP, Senator Simon.
C-Span hosts the candidates in debate at 6 pm CST today.
The most interesting thing IMHO will be how the candidates respond to Dean now that Gore has endorsed him.
Gephardt didn't have a good response. :wink:
Gore's endorsement of Dean is just the latest of the brickbats thrown in the squabble between Gore and his ex-boss. A weak counterblow has been offered by Clark's mention of The Junior Senator from New York as a possible Veep pick. and another by that Senator's ridiculous assertion that she rejects the notion that Dean is the clear Democrat frontrunner, or indeed that there is such a thing. I doubt Lieberman will even be around for the primaries, and I envision things getting quite contentious between Dean and Clark, which will generate considerable media presence for the two of them, likely to the detriment of the remaining footnotes-to-be. Gore clearly sees Dean as the annointed one, and no doubt hopes to retain significant Democrat Party position and influence by means of aligning himself relatively early on with the winner. Gote's endorsement alone makes Dean the frontrunner, irrespective of poll numbers. Now, if Democrats did Machiavelli (or Shakespeare) well, one might expect Gore to step into the role of Dean's Veep-wannabee-to-be. That likely would assure him party position and seniority regardless of the outcome of the '04 Presidential Election. If Dean loses, big or small, Dean loses, but its not Gore's fault. If Dean wins, Gore has the slim but sole chance he ever himself could become President, should "Something terrible happen to Dean". Actually, that's most improbable on several levels. Still, this is clearly a powergrab, and a desperate one at that, on Gore's part, even if the prize reached for is not the Oval Office.
Dean-Edwards would be my guess, although I remain a Kucinich fan (I'd like to see a liberal in office)
Quote:Still, this is clearly a powergrab
Timber,
It may be a "clearly" thing to you, but it's not clear to everyone. You are lacking in trust and good faith. So join the crowd.
Gore aiming to be Dean's VP candidate? Really?
Sounds as highly unlikely a scenario as they come, to me.
nimh wrote:Gore aiming to be Dean's VP candidate? Really?
Sounds as highly unlikely a scenario as they come, to me.
You are correct.
I have no clue about where timber draws those conclusions from, and question highly his ability to prognosticate Democratic Party machinations two months in advance of the first primary.
Anybody watching the debate? Impressions?
I don't think Gore as VP candidate is likely. I do think he waited to see who was going to be the sure front runner so he could do the 'popular' thing and endorse them. I also think he admires Dean's campaign and wishes his would have been ran that way.
I watched the debate, seemed like a rerun of the other ones mostly. Kerry's desperation is causing him to crash, dropping the F-bomb was a big indicator. His remark to Ted was uncalled for, he's losing his cool.
I can't really take Clark serious, I think the only reason he is there is because of Iraq and because Bill encouraged him. I just don't sense any genuine desire to be president in his demeanor. He can talk a good game.
I think Joe is capable, seems serious about wanting the job and I would have confidence in his decisions.
Kucinich and Gephardt scare me. Gephardt seems like a typical politician that has been in the game too long. Kucinich is smart and definitely thinks about the issues, and probably many the other candidates don't. I just don't think he could keep his feistiness under control and he wouldn't have anyone that would work with him long.
Edwards, I like his ideas, he's definitely anti status quo for our big corporate driven gov't.
CMB, there are a lot of jobs she would, and probably is effective at, but not president material. She's very pleasant, probably too nice to be a politician on any level.
Al, entertaining as usual, great analogies. Seems to get to the base of the issues, but thinks he can micromanage them all, doesn't grasp the scope of the presidents function.
Dean, I don't trust him any more than I trusted Bush. I think he wants the job, I just don't know why. Anyone can talk about the issues the way they all do, he isn't any different, he's a better campaigner, that's the only thing that separates him from the candidates with an alike message to his.
