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I want to understand Feminism

 
 
DKgirl
 
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 02:23 pm
Okay, so I have been trying to understand this new (great) movement of feminism, but i have some questions about the whole thing, here goes:

So feminism is not only about equal rights anymore, as far as I understand it's also a anti-violence, pro LGBT, pro education movement. These are all really importen topics, and the more people fighting for theese things the better, but how does this fit under the feminism label? Isn't that just human rights? How is those things related to gender?

So I geuss my question is, what's the exact different between feminism and the human rights movement?

I hope somebody will bother answering me (:

(I'm sure this post is full of spelling and gramma flaws, but I'm from Denmark, i'm doing by best Wink )
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Type: Question • Score: 13 • Views: 5,274 • Replies: 83

 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 02:46 pm
@DKgirl,
One problem with feminism is that it doesn't mean anything specific. There are broad statements about what feminism mean that are definitive in the way a Rorschach test is definitive.

In my opinion, there are some issues where people who identify themselves as feminist take stances that contradict what would be a typical civil rights position. One example, when college students are accused of rape, many feminists oppose granting due process rights for the accused.

One Eyed Mind
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 03:28 pm
Feminism in a nutshell:

Half-naked males is fine.

Half-naked females is sexist.

Equality? More like political equality.
0 Replies
 
Lustig Andrei
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 04:49 pm
Pretty much agree with what max said. Feminism, over the course of time, has become so broad a concept that it includes just about any and all human rights topics. (Btw, your English is just fine; nothing wrong with spelling or grammar.)
victorcarjan
 
  0  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 06:44 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
If this was the case, why do they continue to limit themselves with that title?

"Peopleism" would be equality for all people.

Feminist, as far as I understand, has the motive of "equality for women"; due to centuries of oppression. They want women to have the same equalities as men, as if they don't....


I was watching a highschool National Geography Bee. only 10 percent of the contestants that made the final were girls (1/10) the rest were guys. You won't ever hear feminist say the truth, that girls simply don't focus on their mind as much as their body. Sometimes I think, there are feminist that want "affirmative action" type of rules, where they will kick out some of the guys of the Geography Bee so that girls can be there.


I really don't understand the people that call themselves feminist. You are segregating 50 percent of the population....oh well.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 06:55 pm
Do you want to understand feminism, or just complain about it?
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 07:46 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Do you want to understand feminism, or just complain about it?


It seems to me that one can do both.
0 Replies
 
Lustig Andrei
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 08:52 pm
@victorcarjan,
That's your opinion, victor. My experience would indicate the exact opposite -- when I was still in school, it was usually the girls who were academically at the top of the class. Guys didn't care that much for "book learning"; there was this sense that being intellectual was somehow "faggy."
0 Replies
 
One Eyed Mind
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 17 Sep, 2014 08:56 pm
Are you guys down voting my ideas on a "very broad" term? Interesting. Keep on complaining instead of explaining. I'm pretty sure if you were at a podium and were giving everyone a down vote with your finger, you would be making **** all progress.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  4  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 03:21 am
My question to the author was based on my experience here over the last 12 years in which people who bring up feminism actually have wanted to complain about it, or to suggest that contemporary feminism is not actually dedicated to its (apparent) goals.

I see nothing odd about the notion that feminists, if they are dedicated to the notion of equal rights and fair accommodation would not support those ideals for all people, and not just for otherwise uncategorized women.
DKgirl
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 03:50 am
@Setanta,
I really don't see how my post can be seen as a complain, all im saying is that I hear the word 'feminism' more and more theese days, but it's really hard to understand what it actually means. (:
Germlat
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 04:33 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

One problem with feminism is that it doesn't mean anything specific. There are broad statements about what feminism mean that are definitive in the way a Rorschach test is definitive.

In my opinion, there are some issues where people who identify themselves as feminist take stances that contradict what would be a typical civil rights position. One example, when college students are accused of rape, many feminists oppose granting due process rights for the accused.



Regarding your last paragraph: Feminism is about equality not injustice. So--it is not a violation of the principle to support justice( wether a male or female benefits). But then....this is simply my interpretation.


maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 05:56 am
@Germlat,
That sounds like a circular argument Germlat. If you state by definition that Feminism is about "equality not injustice" then, by definition, everything associated with feminism becomes equal and just. But the real world doesn't work that way.

My point is that in the real world, Feminism is a self-identified trait. Feminism is defined by the people who call themselves "feminists".

I have given you an example where a position taken by people commonly identified as feminists is in direct contradiction of a typical civil rights position. Would you care to discuss the loss of due process rights for college students accused of rape?

Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 07:44 am
@DKgirl,
I wasn't saying you were complaining, i was asking. As i said in a subsequent post, over the 12 years this site has been in operation, every thread i've seen about feminism or feminists has either started out as a criticism, or quickly reached that point.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 08:08 am
@DKgirl,
You aren't going to get any understanding by asking a lot of random strangers, some of which have no idea what feminism is but have strong opinions anyway and some of which have strong anti-feminist views. IMO you'd do better finding scholarly articles on feminism and working your handy search engine.
0 Replies
 
wmwcjr
 
  4  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 08:56 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:
Would you care to discuss the loss of due process rights for college students accused of rape?


Would you care to discuss the coverups of rape on high-school, college, and university campuses?

http://www.motherjones.com/media/2013/12/college-football-sexual-assualt-jameis-winston

Would you care to discuss the "blame the victim" phenomenon? Would you care to discuss the persecution (including death threats) that the rape victim in the Steubenville case suffered despite the fact that there was a guilty verdict?

No, I guess not. After all, they all ask for it.
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 09:25 am
@wmwcjr,
Quote:
Would you care to discuss the coverups of rape on high-school, college, and university campuses?


Sure, I don't mind discussing it. There are two different issues here. Yes, rape should be addressed on campus. That doesn't mean that due process rights for people accused of rape should be thrown out (as they often are in the current climate).

Protecting the rights of the accused is a core civil rights issue.

I have a question for you WMwcjr. You reacted quite hostilely to my point (including tarring me with a trope that I didn't even suggest). Do you react the same way for those of us who support due process rights be given to those accused of other crimes?

I am happy to discuss anything you want. I strongly believe that upholding due process rights for people accused of a crime is vitally important. This doesn't mean I don't support the rights of rape victims.

The idea that supporting civil rights for people accused of crime means you support crime is ridiculous and extreme. This is one of the complaints I have about ideas that are commonly identified as "feminist".




0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:08 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

My question to the author was based on my experience here over the last 12 years in which people who bring up feminism actually have wanted to complain about it, or to suggest that contemporary feminism is not actually dedicated to its (apparent) goals.

I see nothing odd about the notion that feminists, if they are dedicated to the notion of equal rights and fair accommodation would not support those ideals for all people, and not just for otherwise categorized women.


What is the problem with this? Any ideology is going to have its supporters and its detractors. Swallowing any ideology without paying attention to valid criticisms or questions is narrow and at times dangerous (no matter what the ideology).

If someone wants to understand an ideology they should consider the criticisms against it. There is no other way to get a complete view.

There are valid criticisms of feminism. One of these is that feminists don't seem to respond well to valid criticism.
Germlat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 11:48 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

That sounds like a circular argument Germlat. If you state by definition that Feminism is about "equality not injustice" then, by definition, everything associated with feminism becomes equal and just. But the real world doesn't work that way.

My point is that in the real world, Feminism is a self-identified trait. Feminism is defined by the people who call themselves "feminists".

I have given you an example where a position taken by people commonly identified as feminists is in direct contradiction of a typical civil rights position. Would you care to discuss the loss of due process rights for college students accused of rape?

What is typical?....I think the origin of the movement was about gaining equal advantage...not about abusing one's position.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 11:52 am
@Germlat,
My claim that ensuring due process rights for someone accused of a crime is a typical civil rights position. Are you really disputing this?

I will make the case for this if you really need me to, but it seems so obvious that it shouldn't be necessary.

Some background reading (if it is enough) https://www.aclu.org/blog/tag/due-process

 

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