13
   

I want to understand Feminism

 
 
Lustig Andrei
 
  3  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 03:54 pm
@maxdancona,
And this has exactly... what?... to do with feminism, max? Pls stick to the subject if you could.
0 Replies
 
Germlat
 
  3  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 04:13 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Another issue is restraining order abuse. Here in Massachusetts a man who is accused of domestic violence is guilty until proven innocent. He only has a bench trial with no real chance of appeal with judges who are pressured to rule for the accuser. A judge friend of mine estimates that one third of restraining orders granted are "baseless", and yet judges don't dare to rule that way.

A simple way to make this process more fair is to give penalties to women who perjure themselves. That means that if a woman lies under oath to falsely accuse someone of violence, and this is proven beyond a reasonable doubt, there will be penalties. This would make the system significantly more fair.

Even a simple reform like this is not only politically unfeasible, it is not even discussed. Any one who dares to promote this reform in any public way is vilified. (And I challenge you to find me a self-identified feminist in public life

who isn't lock-step in opposition to restraining order reform).

When an ideology becomes so entrenched that it is unquestionable, it leads to bad policy.

Bromides like "feminism is not about inequality" don't change the fact that the political realities caused by this ideology in fact do create unequal treatment in
several cases.

I don't want to do away with feminism (again in many issues I agree with feminism). I do want to do away with the idea that the ideology is sacred and unquestionable. This is not just a theoretical issue.

The ideology is making public discussion impossible and leading to illogical public policy

The statistics on domestic violence include men as well. One out of every three women will suffer from domestic violence at some point....but you don't believe statistics right? Your "judge friend" provides you with all you need to know. There are national banks with statistical data to help you in transitioning from opinion to fact. I know you can google, so I won't bother you with the cumbersome details. I wouldn't take a friend's opinion as authority. I have
known many women who never accused their partners of violence. After some time (multiple hospitalizations) it became evident. My grandfather was a judge
as well.....he's opinion on the subject was different from your friend's. Opinions vary....but many women die at the hands of their partners each year. I challenge you to visit a battered women's shelter. Also --most cases of domestic violence are not reported to the police. View facts from the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence, if you so desire.
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 04:15 pm
@engineer,
Probably his ex.

That's mean of me, and may well be wrong, but really, man has a grudge working.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 04:24 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

Why do you equate "feminism" with restraining order abuse? They are in no way connected other than both involve interactions between men and women.


I thought I explained that. Let me try again.

Restraining order abuse is a problem in Massachusetts (there are divorce lawyers who recommend a restraining order for all of their clients as a matter of course). I don't blame that on feminism.

I do blame feminism for the inability to address this problem in any reasonable way. Anyone who even brings up the issue is vilified by people and groups who are widely associated (and self-identify) as feminist.

The problem is when an ideology pushes sometimes extreme policy and then vilifies anyone who dares question it. This becomes a real problem when it affects public policy (especially when it is able to effectively shut down the other side from debate).


maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 04:33 pm
@Germlat,
Quote:
The statistics on domestic violence include men as well. One out of every three women will suffer from domestic violence at some point....but you don't believe statistics right? Your "judge friend" provides you with all you need to know. There are national banks with statistical data to help you in transitioning from opinion to fact. I know you can google, so I won't bother you with the cumbersome details. I wouldn't take a friend's opinion as authority. I have
known many women who never accused their partners of violence. After some time (multiple hospitalizations) it became evident. My grandfather was a judge
as well.....he's opinion on the subject was different from your friend's. Opinions vary....but many women die at the hands of their partners each year. I challenge you to visit a battered women's shelter. Also --most cases of domestic violence are not reported to the police. View facts from the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence, if you so desire.


You are missing the point Germlat. I never denied that domestic violence is a problem. I agree with your facts. I think you error is one of logic not facts.

There is no reason that both of these can't be true.

1. Domestic violence is a serious and many women are victimized (some times fatally).

2. The restraining order system is sometimes abused where there is no violence (e.g. to gain an advantage during a divorce). When this happens, the system is very unfair to a man who has been fraudulently accused.

My point is that we should make the system fair to both sides. A victim should have access to protection. Someone who is falsely accused should have the ability to defend himself.

This is the idea of restraining order reform. In a system that works, the rights of both sides are protected.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 04:37 pm
@Germlat,
Quote:
One out of every three women will suffer from domestic violence at some point....but you don't believe statistics right? Your "judge friend" provides you with all you need to know.


This is exactly the problem when you have an ideology that can't be questioned. Any discussion turns into a personal attack.

I never said that I "don't believe statistics". That really is rather irrelevant to the point I am trying to make. All I said is that the system should be fair to the accused as well as the accuser.

Fair to both sides... what is wrong with that? Yet, even on this thread where people are talking about how feminism is about equality, people seem to have a strong reaction to this simple idea.

I love irony. (But I don't like ideological purity so much).

0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  4  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 04:39 pm
@maxdancona,
First of all, what is this ideology ****? Sometimes some people agree.

Second, apparently some feminists get headlines. Man gets agita. No concept that ordinary feminists might not be in line. A lot of headlines don't represent majority views.

Inability to address? You want me to cure poverty or pollution or war or drone bombing or others' opinions at all times? What are you, four?
(see Feiffer).

I take you as with agenda.
0 Replies
 
Germlat
 
  3  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 04:41 pm
@maxdancona,
Restraining orders are but a laugh....seldom enforced. If you read files about women that were brutalized, it wasn't uncommon for them to be in place.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 04:45 pm
@Germlat,
Quote:
Restraining orders are but a laugh....seldom enforced. If you read files about women that were brutalized, it wasn't uncommon for them to be in place.


Do you see what you are doing there?

I am not opposed to restraining orders. I think they should be enforced (and in Massachusetts they are).

I also think that the process of getting a restraining order should be fair to both sides.

These are two separate issues. You can do both. You can support fairness at the same time you oppose domestic violence. There is no contradiction here.

Germlat
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 04:56 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

Quote:
Restraining orders are but a laugh....seldom enforced. If you read files about women that were brutalized, it wasn't uncommon for them to be in place.


Do you see what you are doing there?

I am not opposed to restraining orders. I think they should be enforced (and in Massachusetts they are).

I also think that the process of getting a restraining order should be fair to both sides.

These are two separate issues. You can do both. You can support fairness at the same time you oppose domestic violence. There is no contradiction here.




I think it's actually quite easy to respect a restraining order....stay the hell away right? I think for someone to be found in violation( latitude is quite wide) is an indicator of a psychological anomaly.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 05:03 pm
@Germlat,
I agree with that. And I think that someone who breaks a restraining order should be prosecuted.

You are still missing the point. The point is that the process of getting a restraining order should be fair to both sides.

Do you agree with this point?
Germlat
 
  3  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 05:07 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

I agree with that.

You are still missing the point. The point is that the process of getting a restraining order should be fair to both sides.

Do you agree with this point?


It's less than fair...it's seldom enforced. And--if it is it's not at the detriment of the other party...all that's required is to stay away! How difficult is that?!
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 05:26 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
max seems to run with a particularly peculiar set of people who identify themselves as feminists. I've never met any women who would meet his description of feminists.

Based on my own anectdotal evidence, my impression is that they're somewhat common and pretty loud in academia (especially in Germany), but not in practical social and policy work (especially not in the US). Maybe that explains the difference in perception.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 05:43 pm
@Thomas,
Listening, Thomas.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 05:44 pm
@Thomas,
that could be.

Noisy Germans, slightly less noisy Americans, infinitely less noisy Canajuns Wink
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  3  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 05:46 pm
@Thomas,
and you are right that most of the active feminists I know are not academics, with a few striking exceptions

academics are generally a different species, feminist or otherwise
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 05:55 pm
@Thomas,
Listening, Thomas.

Meantime, re Monro and being four, which is all of us -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZey6toSToc


I just loved it, back then.
0 Replies
 
One Eyed Mind
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 06:11 pm
Feminism is a movement that is based on double standards...

As with every other movement.

I wonder why wise men don't have movements -- maybe because they aren't bowel movements?
0 Replies
 
Lustig Andrei
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 07:34 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

I do blame feminism for the inability to address this problem in any reasonable way. Anyone who even brings up the issue is vilified by people and groups who are widely associated (and self-identify) as feminist.=


Really? That's news to me as well as is the rest of your screed. Where've I been living that I never noticed this rampant "vilification"? And I lived more years in Massachusetts than anywhere else in the world.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 07:51 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Then you weren't paying attenstion. See http://www.bostonmagazine.com/2012/08/angry-men-feminist-agenda/ for one example.

(and for another example, have you read through this thread?)
 

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