13
   

I want to understand Feminism

 
 
Lustig Andrei
 
  3  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 08:39 pm
@maxdancona,
Oh, I've read every word of this thread, right from the o.p. and was surprised that so little of it has any bearing on what is generally referred to as 'feminism.' Incidents of unfair treatment of accused rapists (and such incidents are relatively rare) and misuse of the TRO have no relevance to feminism, which is, basically, a movement to protect women from male exploitation and to provide them with equality of opportunity in the work-place and education and everywhere else. You, max, seem to have an anti-female agenda under which anything that is seen a s unfair to men is immediately seen as a part of a feminist movement. On most of these issues we're talking apples and oranges here.
maxdancona
 
  3  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 08:43 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Quote:
You, max, seem to have an anti-female agenda


Please explain... what have I said here, or anywhere else, that shows I have an anti-female agenda?

This is a good example of what I am talking about-- this is an ideology that no one can question without being attacked as anti-female.


One Eyed Mind
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 08:43 pm
Yeah, Lust. I agree. Nobody here has simply broken "feminism" down to "Equality, that's not so equal."
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 09:33 pm
@maxdancona,
I would argue more but I'm female, so suspect. This is sort of like 1962.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 09:41 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Quote:
Incidents of unfair treatment of accused rapists (and such incidents are relatively rare)


So long as relatively is defined as being in the neighborhood of 10%

Quote:
In fact, as Emily Bazelon and Rachael Larimore wrote in Slate five years ago, official data on what law enforcement terms “unfounded” rape reports (that is, ones in which the police determine that no crime occurred) yield conflicting numbers, depending on local policies and procedures—averaging 8 percent to 10 percent of all reported rapes.

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/09/false_rape_accusations_why_must_be_pretend_they_never_happen.html
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 09:43 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:

I would argue more but I'm female, so suspect. This is sort of like 1962.


Harrumph.
0 Replies
 
One Eyed Mind
 
  0  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 09:43 pm
@maxdancona,
You know what's funny, Max? These idiots "fight for the truth", but everyone sees it differently.

Idiots, I say! They don't even notice their stupidity.
0 Replies
 
Lustig Andrei
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 09:44 pm
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

This is a good example of what I am talking about-- this is an ideology that no one can question without being attacked as anti-female.


Wrong. You have not been questioning feminist ideology. You haven't even mentioned a single plank in any feminist platform. What you have been talking about has nothing to do with feminist ideology. You've been talking about specific examples of unfair behavior and somehow managed to imply that all these examples have general feminist backing. From where I stand, nothing could be further from the truth. Early on in this thread someone lamented that 'feminism' seems to have gotten confused with a general civil liberties stance. If that's so, then how can feminism be accused of being, in some sense, anti civil rights?
One Eyed Mind
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 09:48 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Lust, you don't know what "feminism" is. You're just making **** up to make yourself look right.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 09:55 pm
Most of us aren't idealogues.

Now we get to meet up with the enraged Maxcondona, the maestro of the superficial data.

He is the idealogue.



Meantime, all this isn't my interest.

maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:10 pm
@ossobuco,
I don't think I am the one who is enraged here, in fact I rather enjoyed the bitter sarcasm of your last post...
One Eyed Mind
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:12 pm
@maxdancona,
Sarcastic people and serious people are never meant to be taken seriously for any reason, Max.

Trust me - they have nothing to contribute with.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:19 pm
@maxdancona,
bitter sarcasm? you kidding?

Not from me,

but maybe sometime later.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:23 pm
@Lustig Andrei,
Lustig,We haven't defined a "feminist platform".

I raised two issues; the lack of due process for men accused of rape on college campuses, and an opposition to what I consider to be a reasonable reform to the process of obtaining a restraining order (which I believe is unfair to the accused).

Neither of these positions is anti-woman (any more than being in favor of due process for murder suspects is pro-murder). It would be possible for two reasonable people to have a discussion on these topics that didn't devolve to name-calling.

In my opinion one side of each of these issues have been dominated by people associated feminism. I believe I have provided good sources (for example an article written by a feminist) to back that up.

But again, two logical people could disagree about whether these issues are feminist issues or without devolving into name calling or childish attacks.

Feminism is an ideology or a movement or something. Whatever it is, it isn't sacred. The concept of feminism is certainly used in public policy discussions, and there is no reason that it can't be questioned or for heaven's sake criticized.

And Feminism doesn't represent the sum-total of women. I don't think that any ideology represents women as a group on any non-trivial issue. The backlash against feminism includes quite a few females.

I am not sure if you are actually saying that anti-feminist equals anti-woman. But if you were saying that, it would be ridiculous ridiculous.
Lustig Andrei
 
  2  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2014 10:51 pm
@maxdancona,
I agree with you at least this much -- I, too, hope that the issue can be discussed without name-calling or similar vituperation. So far I haven't seen any of that on this thread.
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Sep, 2014 05:05 am
@Lustig Andrei,
Hmmm Lustig. You did accuse me of having an "anti female agenda". It doesn't really matter here where there is no real pressure for politically correct speech. But, this type of accusation does corrupt the debate on public policy issues that matter in the real world.

That is the point. It is too easy to tar someone as "anti-female" as a way of preventing anyone from questioning your ideology.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Fri 19 Sep, 2014 05:15 am
There is so little reasonable, proportioned discussion here. For example, talking about unwarranted reports of rape is completely meaningless without statistics on how many other types of crimes are "over-reported." I do find it hilarious, though, that there are people who vehemently despise and vilify those whom they label feminists, and yet claim that these evil agents are able to threaten others with their condemnations. If feminists are justifiably vilified, why would their public statements against someone be any threat to the targeted individual?
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Fri 19 Sep, 2014 05:18 am
@Setanta,
You seem to have missed this post, Max. Your performance here has so far been wonderfully evidence free.

Setanta wrote:
Can you provide some evidence for your claim [i.e., about the abuse of male college students expelled without due process upon an accusation of rape], including reliable statistics of the incidence and prevalence of such events? When you've done the leg work for that, perhaps you can then provide a reliable source to show that the majority of those who consider themselves to be feminists support such actions.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Sep, 2014 08:25 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
For example, talking about unwarranted reports of rape is completely meaningless without statistics on how many other types of crimes are "over-reported."


This makes no sense.

My comment was that people accused of a crime should be given a fair hearing with due process. This is a statement of what, in my opinion, is core to fairness. I made no claim about statistics or about any crime (including rape) being over-reported.

You are setting up a strawman. I must say your ideological purity on this topic, which is clearly sacred to so many people, is both impressive and heartwarming.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Sep, 2014 10:19 am
@maxdancona,
Go up this page and read Whackeye's post in which he says that 10% of accusations of rape are unfounded. That statistic is meaningless without a baseline to compare it to other allegedly unfounded accusations of criminal behavior. Not everything that people post is about you, dipshit. I set up no strawman, i responded to Whackeye's post. Get over yourself, Mr. Scientific Evidence. So far, i've seen zero evidence from you.
0 Replies
 
 

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