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Intolerance within the confines of a "tolerant" society?

 
 
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2014 12:53 pm
We advocate liberty, we encourage the broadening of views, we accept new insights, we embrace innovations and attempt not to forsake the things we already achieved. All this liberal elements in societies today, and yet certain groups are exposed to hypocrisies, are stigmatized by groups who enjoy themselves at festivals celebrating the fact certain sexualities are now accepted as such and treated equally to the dominant sexuality. My question to the United States of America is this: the way your federal government treats supposed terrorists, paedophiles etc not inhumane or at the very least contradictive to the values of your "tolerant" society? (This is just a domestic problem, I wonder how many more international problems and your involvement in it are yet to be discussed). I am Dutch (we have a similar problem here, though our government does not maltreat) 18 and I have this question to every single American.
 
maxdancona
 
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Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2014 01:01 pm
@Ir David,
Quote:
My question to the United States of America is this: the way your federal government treats supposed terrorists, paedophiles etc not inhumane or at the very least contradictive to the values of your "tolerant" society?


This seems obvious to me.

Things that are damaging to society are not, and should not be tolerated. Terrorism and pedophilia both fall into this category. Things that don't damage society should be tolerated in the name of liberty.

I don't see any problem with outlawing either terrorism or pedophilia. Is there a more interesting question here?

OmSigDAVID
 
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Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2014 01:25 pm
@Ir David,
WELCOME to the forum, David.





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2014 01:32 pm
@Ir David,
Ir David wrote:
We advocate liberty, we encourage the broadening of views, we accept new insights, we embrace innovations and attempt not to forsake the things we already achieved. All this liberal elements in societies today, and yet certain groups are exposed to hypocrisies, are stigmatized by groups who enjoy themselves at festivals celebrating the fact certain sexualities are now accepted as such and treated equally to the dominant sexuality. My question to the United States of America is this: the way your federal government treats supposed terrorists, paedophiles etc not inhumane or at the very least contradictive to the values of your "tolerant" society? (This is just a domestic problem, I wonder how many more international problems and your involvement in it are yet to be discussed). I am Dutch (we have a similar problem here, though our government does not maltreat) 18 and I have this question to every single American.
With all respect, I wish that u 'd re-organize your question
to render it simpler & more understandable.





David
0 Replies
 
luismtzzz
 
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Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2014 02:41 pm
@Ir David,
The point you try to ask hides an inherent trap.

There is no such thing as an all tolerant soceity. Because a tolerant soceity implies the fact that every idea, even the more strange ones are welcome, obviously within a frame of laws to protect the rights of others.

Intolerant groups will allways exist, because not tolerating intolerance will be intolerant and a supposedly tolerant soceity will be considered hypocrite if it does so (do not know if i made myself clear).

I agree with David (O-David) you need to bemore specific. I am also not a native english speaker so i understand the struggle of typing on a foreing lenguage.

BTW welcome to the forums.
Frank Apisa
 
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Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2014 02:59 pm
I'm with David on this one.

Ask your question succinctly...without all the editorializing.

You will get responses.
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Lustig Andrei
 
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Reply Wed 13 Aug, 2014 03:36 pm
Now that we've got all that out of the way -- what, exactly, is your question?
Ir David
 
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Reply Thu 14 Aug, 2014 05:57 am
@Lustig Andrei,
If we claim to be tolerant of homosexuals, shouldn't we at the very least not stigmatize paedophiles? That is my question
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Ir David
 
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Reply Thu 14 Aug, 2014 06:01 am
@maxdancona,
Thank you for your answer. But imagine that there are human beings out there who know that children are indeed not ready/ripe for sex, and that the feelings of love (not just of the carnal kind) are indeed harmful or confusing for the child, and therefore decided not act on their sexual orientation. So people that already are forced to deny a part of their being are also being stigmatized and their are already near impossible way of abstinent life is even now condemned. I think our attitude towards them must change.
Ir David
 
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Reply Thu 14 Aug, 2014 06:06 am
@luismtzzz,
Thank you for this answer. Indeed it is a inherent and subtle trap. I consider it one of our greatest flaws. I am fully aware that we can never tolerate everyone and everything, lest freedom and tolerance becomes a breeding pit for anarchy and immoral behaviour, but we should never stigmatize or deprave people of their (civil) rights. And that is where I think we should draw a line. Terrorists in Guantanamo are being depraved of their right to defend themselves, there is also evidence of inhumane treatment. We cannot allow this, can we?
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Ir David
 
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Reply Thu 14 Aug, 2014 06:14 am
@Ir David,
I am quite amazed by the responses. I plan to make use of the tips and try to simplify from now on. I motivate my choice for the "complex" way in which the post was written by a fear. The fear of being without nuance and I hate to address serious matters, in a banal way. But you are right, a little more straight forward, a little much more. Thank you for your time, advise and opinions.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
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Reply Thu 14 Aug, 2014 06:14 am
@Ir David,
You are grossly underestimating the damage done by pedophilia.

Pedophila is devastating for a child and can ruin a life. The fact that these children are victims in the purest sense of the word, and powerless to defend themselves make this crime even worse.

Have you listened to the testimony of the survivors of sexual abuse? Pedophiles ruin lives.

That being said, I do have sympathy, and even respect, for people who are sexually attracted to childen but abstain from acting on it. I strongly support programs that work in this area and I think that as a society we should be supporting these programs more.

Because of the great damage done to children and our society at large, sex with children must never be tolerated.

Ir David
 
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Reply Thu 14 Aug, 2014 06:59 am
@maxdancona,
Thank you maxdancona for your convictions and for looking at this problem from multiple angles. I never underestimated the damage done by pedophilia. I know how this ravages a child, family and communities. I do not condone the abuse of a child in any way, and sincerely believe that a child's innocence should be preserved until appropriate times. Those paedophiles that realise this, what both you and I realise indeed deserve our sympathy and we shouldn't tolerate sex with children and sexual abuse (there is a difference, and not every pedosexual intents to abuse or abuses, which in either case shouldn't be tolerated). BUT WE CANNOT, NEVER EVER STIGMATIZE THEM, WE SHOULDN'T TOLERATE A SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP WITH CHILDREN, BUT THOSE THAT ARE ABSTINENT DO DESERVE OUR SYMPATHY, BUT NEVER OUR HATRED NOR MUST WE MAKE LIFE IMPOSSIBLE THROUGH STIGMATIZATION OR ANY OTHER WAY FOR THOSE PAEDOPHILES THAT DID ABUSE CHILDREN! We are above this.
maxdancona
 
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Reply Thu 14 Aug, 2014 07:02 am
@Ir David,
There is a big difference between people who are attracted to children and people who have sex with children.

Please keep these two groups separate. You can get sympathy from me for the first group. You will not get any sympathy for the second.
Ir David
 
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Reply Thu 14 Aug, 2014 07:17 am
@maxdancona,
I made this distinction, didn't I? I am not always asking for sympathy, and tolerance. I know where our boundaries lie, I realise this. I ASK only not to purge them, to condemn them, to stigmatize them, to deprave them of a decent life. To take the life of somebody else is wrong and from a certain point of view one could indeed say that to act with such extreme prejudice and to relentlessly condemn someone, no matter what they did, is to take someone's life. They way we treat paedophiles is quite similar to the way that homosexuals were persecuted in every layer of society in most societies throughout much of history (but we know of Sparta and we also know Hadrian), what we do has the same impact on paedophiles like Kristallnacht had on Jews. I am not advocating their sexual orientation or condoning abuse, I am simply defending one's right to live. If I didn't I would be a murderer in a sense, I would like to see that pain of the victims could be undone. I cannot do this, but I can help prevent this from happening in the future, but without making life impossible for the one who causes the pain.
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Lustig Andrei
 
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Reply Thu 14 Aug, 2014 09:53 am
Just this one time I am in total and complete agreement with everything that maxdancona has said. Sympathy and tolerance for would-be pedophiles is one thing. But protection of children from such people is paramount.
Ir David
 
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Reply Thu 14 Aug, 2014 10:35 am
@Lustig Andrei,
As do I. I will repeat myself once more: I consider it of vital importance that we do not expose our children to sex, nor must they ever be in a sexual relation with anyone. Their innocence must be preserved. The paedophile however must not be maltreated or stigmatized. That is wrong, just as it is wrong to abuse a child, approach it with ignoble intentions or anything else that is harmful to child and its development. I said this in all my previous replies to maxdancona. Has this gone unnoticed?
Romeo Fabulini
 
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Reply Thu 14 Aug, 2014 10:41 am
Quote:
David said: The paedophile however must not be maltreated or stigmatized.

If one came to live in your street, would you like the police to warn you and your neighbours, or would you prefer they kept it a secret?
Ir David
 
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Reply Thu 14 Aug, 2014 11:59 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
I prefer they kept it a secret, I know I would treat as a human being, regardless of his sexual orientation. If he indeed indulged himself and has been convicted for it, than I would still treat him like a human being. I am not going to act prejudiced, I will of course be careful if I knew, and keep a close watch on my children as I always do. But I wouldn't go around persecuting him, or deny him anything reasonable or maltreat him. But I don't know if my neighbours concur and therefore I would like the police to keep it a secret. Once more I do not condone sex with children, or that children are exposed to sexual themes in any way. And I would of course signal the authorities if I suspected someone of doing this, we all would.
Romeo Fabulini
 
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Reply Thu 14 Aug, 2014 12:08 pm
Quote:
Romeo said: If a paedophile came to live in your street, would you like the police to warn you and your neighbours, or would you prefer they kept it a secret?
David replied: I prefer they kept it a secret

The bosses of a church here in Plymouth did that a couple of years ago, a convicted peedo joined their church, they knew his sordid history but decided to keep it secret from all the church members.
Care to guess what happened next? Yup, he started abusing members kids left right and centre because they hadn't been warned he was a pervert
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