Intolerance within the confines of a "tolerant" society?

@Ir David,

Ir David wrote:

I prefer they kept it a secret, I know I would treat as a human being, regardless of his sexual orientation. If he indeed indulged himself and has been convicted for it, than I would still treat him like a human being. I am not going to act prejudiced, I will of course be careful if I knew, and keep a close watch on my children as I always do. But I wouldn't go around persecuting him, or deny him anything reasonable or maltreat him. But I don't know if my neighbours concur and therefore I would like the police to keep it a secret. Once more I do not condone sex with children, or that children are exposed to sexual themes in any way. And I would of course signal the authorities if I suspected someone of doing this, we all would.

I agree insofar as adult males r concerned,
but not females. In my childhood, I enjoyed sexual involvement
with adolescent girls & a woman in her early 2Os. I m glad for those
experiences and I deem them assets of my life. I 'd not deny the same
good luck to boys of the future.

David

1 Reply

@Ir David,

David, what about the intolerant society that exists in your tolerant society? Do I need to name the group?

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

David I strongly disagree with you. You say that it was good for you . I obviously can't judge your life.

For many young boys, relationships with adult women are traumatic the same way relationships with adult men are traumatic for many girls. It may be even more traumatic for boys because of society's inability to accept this as rape when women are the perpetrators.

2 Replies

@buttflake,

A tolerant soceity will always have intolerant groups within. Because such societies accept every idea or doctrine hence it respects a common law structure.

So while intolerant groups act under law boundaries they will not be rejected. So it doesn't matter what society you choose to criticize Davids or of any of us there will always be intolerant groups. Even on highly educated individuals this can be seen sometimes.

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

The limit between personal sexuality and abuse is consent. I agree with you that a huge damage can be made to a boy by a grown up woman. Maybe O David's case is a particular one. There are some rare cases of precocious sexual behavior where a boy or girl can give their consent. But this is really rare.

Legal protection for sexual consent is needed since the developmental damage caused to a brain that is in process of maturation is huge.

I understand the point I-David tries to make. Yes a person who has sexual desire for children but that had never acted upon this drive should not be marked or stigmatized. He or she should be helped.

There's a high degree psychological defense mechanism called sublimation. This defense mechanism transforms a negative behavior ito something positive. Like a boy with anger problems that drives his energy to boxing and becomes a professional do to anger transformed into hard work.

There is always a way to help those in need. Our soceities should grow to work collectively toward the goal of universal mental health. We really trend to ignore or under care for those who suffer from mental or behavioral issues. Like the Elliot case. Or one on my country a few years ago called Santollo. Every country has stories like that. We as a society are forgetting that not just the physical health and the wealth are important.

1 Reply

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

David I strongly disagree with you. You say that it was good for you.

Yes. Indeed. I look back most fondly on that body of experience.
I 'd have DEFENDED those encounters, if such had been necessary; it never was.
We had our privacy.

maxdancona wrote:

I obviously can't judge your life.

U come across as tho u 'd rob me
of those pleasures, if u were able to do so.

maxdancona wrote:

For many young boys, relationships with adult women are traumatic
the same way relationships with adult men are traumatic for many girls.

That makes no sense.
Shud I have feared pregnancy????
Was there some problem that I failed to detect ??
I did not get sick, nor did thay.

maxdancona wrote:

It may be even more traumatic for boys because of society's inability
to accept this as rape when women are the perpetrators.

Please note that I did not want "society" to accept my private
relations as being ANYTHING, especially not rape.
In court, I 'd have either testified for the defense, or not at all.

In theory, I can envision an un-attractive woman
endeavoring to get sexual gratification from an un-willing male,
of any age. I have some women in mind, to whom I 'd not wanna
get too close, tho we are casual, platonic friends or acquaintances.

If any person were attacking me back then, against my will,
he or she cud have and wud have gotten shot.
Thay were good looking n attractive. I was quite eager, with good reason.
Life wud have been more bleak n boring without them.

I wish equally good fortune to my fellow citizens of the future.
Thay shud not be cheated by their state legislatures.

David

0 Replies

@luismtzzz,

luismtzzz wrote:

The limit between personal sexuality and abuse is consent.

It is. Yes.

luismtzzz wrote:

I agree with you that a huge damage
can be made to a boy by a grown up woman.

Really? I did not feel endangered.
Can u explain that danger more explicitly?
What symptoms shud I have expected from that huge damage ?

luismtzzz wrote:

Maybe O David's case is a particular one.

I thought that every case was a particular one.

luismtzzz wrote:

There are some rare cases of precocious sexual behavior
where a boy or girl can give their consent. But this is really rare.

At the time, I did not deem myself to be rare, nor unusual.

luismtzzz wrote:

Legal protection for sexual consent is needed since the developmental
damage caused to a brain that is in process of maturation is huge.

Will u more specifically describe the danger of that "damage" Doctor??
I felt rather safe, at the time
and in the years, decades and century since then.
I wonder whether I remain in danger from those sexual encounters.
I look forward to your best advice.

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

Will u more specifically describe the danger of that "damage" Doctor??

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/bul/113/1/164/

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0145213487900111

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0145213495001123

http://ps.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleID=70491

A meta‐analytic review of findings from national samples on psychological correlates of child sexual abuse
B Rind, P Tromovitch - Journal of Sex Research, 1997 - Taylor & Francis

The measurement of psychological maltreatment: Early data on the child abuse and trauma scale
B Sanders, E Becker-Lausen - Child Abuse & Neglect, 1995 - Elsevier

http://jiv.sagepub.com/content/14/2/184.short

Child sexual abuse: The initial effects.
B Gomes-Schwartz, JM Horowitz, AP Cardarelli - 1990 - psycnet.apa.org

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0145213483900704

Sexual behavior problems and psychopathology symptoms in sexually abused girls
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0890856709633475

The psychological impact of sexual abuse: Content analysis of interviews with male survivors
D Lisak - Journal of Traumatic Stress, 1994 - Wiley Online Library

Impact of child sexual abuse on mental health
Prospective study in males and females
Josie Spataro, PhD and Paul E. Mullen, DSc
Philip M. Burgess, PhD
David L. Wells, MBBS
Simon A. Moss, PhD
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/184/5/416.short

Increased prevalence of electrophysiological abnormalities in children with psychological, physical, and sexual abuse
The Journal of Neuropsychiatry and Clinical Neurosciences 1993;5:401-408.
http://neuro.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleID=98424

Early Sexual Exploitation as an Influence in Prostitution
Mimi H. Silbert, Ph.D., President and Ayala M. Pines, Ph.D., Research Associate
http://sw.oxfordjournals.org/content/28/4/285.short

Adult male survivors of childhood sexual abuse
K Etherington - Counselling Psychology Quarterly, 1995 - Taylor & Francis
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?start=20&q=psychological+damage+sexual+abuse+male&hl=es&as_sdt=0,5&as_vis=1

Resilience and risk factors associated with experiencing childhood sexual abuse
DT Wilcox, F Richards, ZC O'Keeffe - Child Abuse Review, 2004 - Wiley Online Library
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/car.862/abstract;jsessionid=4DDA24FEDBFF527CD8E66A080D8564D1.f02t04?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

Hippocampal volume in women victimized by childhood sexual abuse
M. B. STEIN a1 , C. KOVEROLA a1 , C. HANNA a1 , M. G. TORCHIA a1 and B. McCLARTY a1
a1 Departments of Psychiatry, Psychology and Radiology, University of Manitoba and St. Boniface, General Hospital Research Centre, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada; and Department of Psychiatry, University of California, San Diego and the Psychiatry Service, VA Medical Center, La Jolla, CA, USA
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=25475&fileId=S0033291797005242

The Long-Term Effects of Child Sexual Abuse by Female Perpetrators
A Qualitative Study of Male and Female Victims
Myriam S. Denov
http://jiv.sagepub.com/content/19/10/1137.short

Psychological disturbance and child sexual abuse: a follow-up study1
Rachel Calama, , Louise Horneb, David Glasgowc, Antony Coxd
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0145213498000684

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I hope this is enough. Wink

1 Reply

@luismtzzz,

luismtzzz wrote:

I hope this is enough.

Yes! Thank u very much, Doctor.
I'm eager to read them,
but note that my experiences
were of normal paradigmatic sexual activity
with the ladies since I was 11, not of abuse; i.e., no anger.

I 'm grateful to the ladies.

My life woud have been less
without them; I treasure them.

3 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

You obviously were not a prosecutor

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

David,

Adults having sex with an 11 year old child is rape. There is no way around this. An 11 year old is way to young to be able to consent (if this happened to a 15 or 16 year old it may arguable). This is before puberty.

You say that this didn't hurt you. I am sorry I find this very difficult to believe. Even if it is true that you weren't hurt by this, every other 11 year old kid who has experienced this is hurt. We can not permit this to happen in society. Adults have power over kids. They can manipulate them into doing what they want, it is not a fair relationship (which is why it is abusive).

The women who did this were rapists. They should have been have been put in jail.

2 Replies

@maxdancona,

You're making a large assumption here, max, viz. that the woman was the initiator of the sexual encounter. Otherwise, how can it be considered 'rape'? But what if the 11-year-old male made the sexual advances to the thirty-something female? And what if they were then reciprocated?

This is a terribly gray area, I fear.

1 Reply

@Ir David,

Most of us have learned about the priests who raped and molested children. Those victims suffered greatly from the churches silence, and transferring of priests to other locations to hide their crimes.

That the heads of a popular church would tolerate such things proves that children must be protected at every turn.

Why the Jews of Israel can kill innocent Palestinian children by the thousands is the mystery of our times; nobody is speaking out or taking action against Israel's genocide.

Why?

0 Replies

Quote:

Cicerone asked: Why the Jews of Israel can kill innocent Palestinian children by the thousands is the mystery of our times..

It's no mystery mate, the USA is giving Israel $3 billion a year plus bombs, shells and missiles!
So the next time you see an Israeli Hellfire missile hitting Gaza you can think "I helped pay for that!"

PS- other countries including Britain also send truckloads of cash and stuff to Israel but my conscience is clear, I've never voted for any of the governments that do it

0 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

David wrote:

I 'm grateful to the ladies.

My life woud have been less
without them; I treasure them.

Regardless of how precocious or mature you were for your age, to them you were just an object.
Consider yourself unbelieveably lucky to have maintained a healthy perspective on male/female relationships.
Assuming you did

1 Reply

@Lustig Andrei,

Really Lustig? If an 11 year old child made sexual advances to you, would you feel it was justified to have sex with him or her? Don't you see the problem here?

An 11 year old is prepubescent. This is illegal in any modern civilized country I know of. But even morally this is indefensible. A 30 year old can manipulate an 11 year old into pretty much anything, there is no way a civilized society can tolerate this.

This is not a gray area at all.

1 Reply

@neologist,

David wrote:

I 'm grateful to the ladies.

My life woud have been less
without them; I treasure them.

neologist wrote:

Regardless of how precocious or mature you were for your age,
to them you were just an object.

I guess sex is that way, possibly.
I did not expect love & romance from them.
I did not want that at age 11.
I got what I wanted.

neologist wrote:

Consider yourself unbelieveably lucky to have maintained a healthy perspective
on male/female relationships. Assuming you did

That perplexes me.
I don t understand Y that is nor shud be.

What we did was fully normal n natural.
Those encounters had no effect upon my vu of the world; no changes.

I see no un-believable luck. I see only expected paradigmatic life experience.

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

Really Lustig? If an 11 year old child made sexual advances to you, would you feel it was justified to have sex with him or her? Don't you see the problem here?

As long as you're making this personal, no, I would not feel justified in engaging in sexual activity with an under-age person. But my refusal to do so would be based on my personal sense of ethical behavior, not on any fear of somehow doing harm to the other person's psyche. In the event of mutual consent, and absent such personal ethical considerations, the only problem I see is legal, not psychological.

0 Replies

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

You obviously were not a prosecutor

I said hereinabove that I 'd have testified for the defense,
or not at all. I dont intentionally hurt my friends.
Those ladies treated me better than my other friends.

0 Replies

@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

David,

Adults having sex with an 11 year old child is rape.

I 'm bringing out the point
that this shud be limited to apply only against MALE adults,
not to interfere in any good luck that a boy like I was
gets with the ladies. If that had happened, I 'd have been infuriated
and defended the ladies.

maxdancona wrote:

There is no way around this.
An 11 year old is way too young to be able to consent.

Well, Max, how do u reconcile that concept
with violent rapists who have been 11 years old?? Did thay factually consent?
Statutory rape is a legal concept whereby factual consent
by a minor is just not recognized in court.

I did factually consent, with enthusiasm.
The concept of consent in law was never brought to bear,
in that our privacy defeated any interference from government (or anyone).

maxdancona wrote:

(if this happened to a 15 or 16 year old it may arguable).

I can remember back to my 3rd birthday
and to some time leading up to it. I was always possessed of
bi-sexual erotic interests & urges, until at age approximately 13.3,
a blonde girl named Joyce (3 months younger than I was)
ended any bi-sexuality, rather abruptly,
but after she socially approached me,
she later rejected me, several times; poor me. I obsessed.

maxdancona wrote:

This is before puberty.

I was pubic at 1O,
but that did not interfere. I did not like that.

maxdancona wrote:

You say that this didn't hurt you.

Yes. There have been no ill effects. I don t expect any.
Well over half a century has passed since then.

maxdancona wrote:

I am sorry I find this very difficult to believe.

What hurt did u expect ?
There were no pregnancies, nor any STDs.
Will u reveal what symptoms u anticipated ??

maxdancona wrote:

Even if it is true that you weren't hurt by this,
every other 11 year old kid who has experienced this is hurt.

Really???
Thank u for that information.
Will u specify the injuries that were suffered by the other 11 year olds??
What was the source of your information concerning "every other"
11 year old kid?? Did u ask them all ??

maxdancona wrote:

We can not permit this to happen in society.

There were no attempts by anyone to interfere.
We were not fornicating in the streets. Our privacy prevailed.
That enabled our erotic success.

maxdancona wrote:

Adults have power over kids.

If thay had tried to exert POWER
over me, then that 'd have overturned the apple cart.
I 'd not put up with that. Thay approached me in friendship & charm.
Bear in mind that by then, for years, I 'd been armed with a .38 revolver
for use in defense from any form of predatory violence, of which this was NOT.
If I had not liked their looks, I 'd have just said no. Rejection is ez.
Don t u know that, Max??

Upon reflection, I remember another incident, on that point,
when I was 9. A woman sexually approached me, whose looks
I disliked, and I simply declined; no fuss, no loss of friendship.
I have declined the same way in adulthood.

maxdancona wrote:

They can manipulate them into doing what they want,
it is not a fair relationship (which is why it is abusive).

U are telling me
that I was not able to resist manipulation???
In regard to un-related non-sexual matters at the time
and thru out my childhood, my relatives had a different opinion
of how manipulable I was. I was known for persistent argument in support
of my own point of vu and refusal to co-operate, unless I were convinced to do so.

maxdancona wrote:

The women who did this were rapists.
They should have been have been put in jail.

My other friends did not treat me as well as thay did.
As I indicated hereinabove, if thay had ever been threatened,
then I 'd have actively defended them; the decent thing to do with your friends.

1 Reply

Intolerance within the confines of a "tolerant" society?

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