17
   

During The American Revolutionary War, the state religion of Great Britain was Christianity?

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Reply Sat 26 Jul, 2014 11:26 am
@oristarA,
To call Set someone who doesn't know many historical facts and facts about the US-constitution is more than ridiculous.

Are you on drugs, oristarA?
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Sat 26 Jul, 2014 12:27 pm
One will note that the only contribution as a founder that is attributed to Jefferson is writing the Declaration of Independence. Leaving aside that his ideas were not original, and that most of his expressed ideas in fact came from George Wythe--it was a committee. Jefferson submitted a draft, which the committee then cut it down by a third or more. Even this contribution was tolerably paltry. The United States was already at war with Great Britain. They had battled the British at Lexington and Concord, and the long march back to Boston. They had battled them on Breed's Hill (often erroneously referred to as Bunker Hill). After Washington took command, he reorganized the army, and then took Dorchester Heights in a coup de main on a wintry March night in 1776, and moved artillery to the top of the heights. The British had no choice but to abandon Boston--they never returned.

For as stirring and inspirational as the declaration was, it did nothing material to establish American independence, nor to form an effective government. Jefferson did not serve in the military in the Revolution. His two successors as president, James Madison and James Monroe, did serve. Jefferson did not participate in the constitutional convention, nor did he actively participate in the ratification debates--he simply commented from a distance.

Others may gush over Jefferson's contribution. I don't see any evidence that he contributed anything substantive to American independence, nor the eventual establishment of an effective government. No matter what others may say, i see no reason to consider Jefferson a "founding father."
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Jul, 2014 12:15 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

To call Set someone who doesn't know many historical facts and facts about the US-constitution is more than ridiculous.

Are you on drugs, oristarA?


Ever heard "High on Reason"? Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 28 Jul, 2014 01:36 am
@oristarA,
oristarA wrote:
The success of American Independence demanded some degree of anti-Christianity to undermine the morale of the then Great Britain.


Oh yeah . . . high on reason . . . right . . .

What sort of "reason" lead to that hilarious conclusion? You've been trying anything throughout this thread to dodge the patent stupidity of that remark.
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jul, 2014 08:23 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

One will note that the only contribution as a founder that is attributed to Jefferson is writing the Declaration of Independence. Leaving aside that his ideas were not original, and that most of his expressed ideas in fact came from George Wythe--it was a committee. Jefferson submitted a draft, which the committee then cut it down by a third or more. Even this contribution was tolerably paltry. The United States was already at war with Great Britain. They had battled the British at Lexington and Concord, and the long march back to Boston. They had battled them on Breed's Hill (often erroneously referred to as Bunker Hill). After Washington took command, he reorganized the army, and then took Dorchester Heights in a coup de main on a wintry March night in 1776, and moved artillery to the top of the heights. The British had no choice but to abandon Boston--they never returned.

For as stirring and inspirational as the declaration was, it did nothing material to establish American independence, nor to form an effective government. Jefferson did not serve in the military in the Revolution. His two successors as president, James Madison and James Monroe, did serve. Jefferson did not participate in the constitutional convention, nor did he actively participate in the ratification debates--he simply commented from a distance.

Others may gush over Jefferson's contribution. I don't see any evidence that he contributed anything substantive to American independence, nor the eventual establishment of an effective government. No matter what others may say, i see no reason to consider Jefferson a "founding father."


So in your view, Jefferson is not the author of the Declaration of Independence (so far as I could search out, all American historians and the historians from the rest of the world, have contributed the authorship to Jefferson); rather, he plagiarized most of his ideas from George Wythe (who, with Jefferson, signed the document!)?

It is an either-or thing: 1) The majority of the historians is stupid; 2) Setanta is stupid. There's no other way around.

When Christopher Columbus announced that he discovered America, the world applauded him for this great deed. But wait a minute, were there not millions of native Americans who had already lived in the continent for centuries before the arrival of Columbus? Were they all blind to their land? Did they not discover America far earlier than him? Of course they did! So Columbus was a swindler who plagiarized the honor? Has the whole world been cheated by him?

No. Columbus deserved the honor. Tell me why, Setanta. If only you know this, you will understand why Jefferson deserved the authorship of the Declaration of Independence.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Mon 28 Jul, 2014 09:54 am
@oristarA,
Columbus announced that he had discovered America???

Columbus wrote in the letter on the first voyage that he had discovered and taken possession of a series of islands on the edge of the Indian Ocean in Asia.

In Latin: Epistola Christofori Colom: cui (a)etas nostra multum debet: de Insulis Indi(a)e supra Gangem nuper inventis, ad quas perquirendas, octavo antea mense, auspicijs et (a)ere invictissimi Fernandi Hispaniarum Regis missus fuerat: ad Magnificum d(omi)n(u)m Raphaelem Sanxis: eiusdem serenissi Regis Thesaurarium missa: quam nobilis ac litteratus vir Aliander de Cosco ab Hispano ideomate in latinum convertit: tertio kal(enda)s Maii, M.cccc.xciii, Pontificatus Alexandri Sexti, Anno primo.
("Letter of Christopher Columbus, to whom our age is much indebted, about the islands of India beyond the Ganges recently discovered, and to explore which he had been sent eight months before under the auspices and at the expense of the most invincible Ferdinand, King of Spain; to the magnificent lord Raphael Sanxis, Treasurer to the Most Serene King, which the noble and literate notary Aliander de Cosco converted from the Spanish language into Latin, third calends of May, 1493, during the first year of the pontificate of Alexander VI.")

[None of his letters in Spanish are mentioned by any writers before the 19th century, nor have any other copies been found, which suggests they were very small printings, and that the publication of Columbus' letter may have been suppressed in Spain by royal command.]
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Mon 28 Jul, 2014 09:59 am
@oristarA,
oristarA wrote:
It is an either-or thing: 1) The majority of the historians is stupid; 2) Setanta is stupid. There's no other way around.
So you really think that "the majority of historians" hadn't noticed that George Mason’s draft of the Virginia Declaration of Rights was published in the Pennsylvania Gazette about the same day as Jefferson might have started his writing?

Did you ever read something about American history by a serious historian????
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 28 Jul, 2014 10:30 am
I see that Oristar is still avoiding the discussion of his gaffe about christianity by attempting to focus the discussion on Jefferson. As he clearly knows nothing about either topic, he's not doing himself a favor.
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jul, 2014 10:40 am
@oristarA,
oristarA wrote:


That is, these Bibles just serve as a reminder of American success in their struggle for Freedom. If you are smart enough, DON'T read them, or you'll get poisoned by the slaveholder thought.


I like the way you think oristar.

When I was a little Chai, I went to catholic school. We were always praying for the poor children in China and Africa who didn't have Jesus.

Even then, I found that hard to swallow.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 28 Jul, 2014 11:16 am
Just to get something out in the open about this clown Oristar: i have received a private message from Oristar, containing a link and a request that i read the linked material to determine if the Mandarine looks natural, or some such nonsense such as Oristar so frequently asks about his own use of English.

This is like a species of tu quoque fallacy--that i f cannot read Mandarin, i should not criticize Oristar for faults in his English. I have two replies to that. The first is that i have never claimed to be able to read Mandarin, and in any event, posts are almost never made here in Mandarin. If any were, they'd get precious few responses. Whether or not i can read Mandarin is irrelevant to any valid criticism of Oristar's use of English.

The second is to point out that Oristar has been having an hysterical fit in this thread because of a bizarre claim he attempted to make about American history. Furthermore, Oristar has consistently attempted to avoid the issue of his absurd and hilarious gaffe about christianity by focusing on Jefferson, about whom he also knows almost nothing.

The longer this thread continues, the less i consider Oristar to be capable of coherent, reasoned debate.
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jul, 2014 11:25 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

oristarA wrote:
It is an either-or thing: 1) The majority of the historians is stupid; 2) Setanta is stupid. There's no other way around.
So you really think that "the majority of historians" hadn't noticed that George Mason’s draft of the Virginia Declaration of Rights was published in the Pennsylvania Gazette about the same day as Jefferson might have started his writing?

Did you ever read something about American history by a serious historian????


Would you like to post the text of the Virginia Declaration of Rights here, so that I need not to search it out?
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 28 Jul, 2014 12:26 pm
@oristarA,
oristarA wrote:
Would you like to post the text of the Virginia Declaration of Rights here, so that I need not to search it out?
You wrote about those historians ... it's usually at the very beginning of their books/essays when they mention it.

I do think that you can look it up yourself.
This is from the National Archives website
Quote:
Virginia's Declaration of Rights was drawn upon by Thomas Jefferson for the opening paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence. It was widely copied by the other colonies and became the basis of the Bill of Rights. Written by George Mason, it was adopted by the Virginia Constitutional Convention on June 12, 1776.
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jul, 2014 09:39 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Columbus announced that he had discovered America???

Columbus wrote in the letter on the first voyage that he had discovered and taken possession of a series of islands on the edge of the Indian Ocean in Asia.

In Latin: Epistola Christofori Colom: cui ...

("Letter of Christopher Columbus, to whom our age is much indebted, about the islands of India beyond the Ganges recently discovered, and to explore which he had been sent eight months before under the auspices and at the expense of the most invincible Ferdinand, King of Spain; to the magnificent lord Raphael Sanxis, Treasurer to the Most Serene King, which the noble and literate notary Aliander de Cosco converted from the Spanish language into Latin, third calends of May, 1493, during the first year of the pontificate of Alexander VI.")

[None of his letters in Spanish are mentioned by any writers before the 19th century, nor have any other copies been found, which suggests they were very small printings, and that the publication of Columbus' letter may have been suppressed in Spain by royal command.]


I don't know what you are talking about, Walter Hinteler.
"Columbus announced that he had discovered America" simply refers to the fact that Columbus discovered America.
Please search: "Christopher Columbus completed four voyages across the Atlantic Ocean that led to general European awareness of the American continents" to get a further impression that he deserves the honor of the discovery.
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jul, 2014 09:45 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

oristarA wrote:
It is an either-or thing: 1) The majority of the historians is stupid; 2) Setanta is stupid. There's no other way around.
So you really think that "the majority of historians" hadn't noticed that George Mason’s draft of the Virginia Declaration of Rights was published in the Pennsylvania Gazette about the same day as Jefferson might have started his writing?

Did you ever read something about American history by a serious historian????


I wonder whether that you, being a German, have read a lot about American history by serious historians. Very Happy
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jul, 2014 09:57 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

I see that Oristar is still avoiding the discussion of his gaffe about christianity by attempting to focus the discussion on Jefferson. As he clearly knows nothing about either topic, he's not doing himself a favor.



Did you know that Jefferson was the first United States Secretary of State (1790–1793) serving under President George Washington, Setanta?

Did you know that Jefferson was a spokesman for democracy, embraced the principles of republicanism and the rights of the individual with worldwide influence, Setanta?

Did you know that at the beginning of the American Revolution, Jefferson served in the Continental Congress, representing Virginia and then served as a wartime Governor of Virginia (1779–1781), Setanta?

Did you know that Jefferson is considered a primary architect in America's growth; he doubled in size the United States during his presidency, Setanta?

Did you know that Jefferson was a leader in the Enlightenment, a polymath who spoke five languages, Setanta?
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Jul, 2014 10:01 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler is a big fan of Setanta.
Let's see whether Setanta will lose his fighting spirit without the hot-headed support of WH.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2014 01:55 am
@oristarA,
It's apparent now that you haven't even been reading my posts, so why should i bother any further. I already noted that Jefferson was the first secretary of state, and pointed out what you apparently don't know, that he worked against many of the policies of Washington's administration, especially those of Alexander Hamilton. Furthermore, the first secretary of foreign affairs was John Jay, before the name of the office was changed to secretary of state, and offered to Jefferson.

Your comment about Jefferson being a spokesman for demoncracy is so much twaddle--it could be said for dozens of Americans in the relevant perio. That's what is known in journalism as fluff--words that sound nice but are essentially meaningless.

I've already mentioned that Jefferson served in the Continental Congress and the was governor of Virginia. You clearly are not reading what i write here.

Whether or not the Louisiana purchase was a good thing for everyone affected is debatable. Some Americans at the time alleged that it was unconstitutional. Jefferson also colluded with Napoleon in an attempt to put down the slave rebellion in Haiti as a part of the negotiation for the territory. Are we to assume that any increase in the territory controlled by the United States was ipso facto a good thing?

The so-called enlightenment died in the welter of blood that was the French Revolution. Jefferson was never a leader in the enlightenment (i suspect you've gone out to find a pro-Jefferson web site, and are just puking up what you've read there). One could say that Franklin was a leader in the enlightenment, but hardly Jefferson. Speaking many languages doesn't make someone automatically a good person.

****************************

However, what is significant here, is that you're playing this idiotic game about Jefferson because you continue to attempt to avoid the gaffe you made about Americans--who were christians--allegedly attempting to attack christianity during the revolution. You have consistently refused to address this gross and hilarious error on your part.
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jul, 2014 09:38 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

The so-called enlightenment died in the welter of blood that was the French Revolution. Jefferson was never a leader in the enlightenment (i suspect you've gone out to find a pro-Jefferson web site, and are just puking up what you've read there). One could say that Franklin was a leader in the enlightenment, but hardly Jefferson. Speaking many languages doesn't make someone automatically a good person.


Poor Setanta. Though the Enlightenment was centered in France indeed, it also encompassed The American Enlightenment:

Quote:
The American Enlightenment is a period of intellectual ferment in the thirteen American colonies in the period 1714–1818, which led to the American Revolution, American Independence, the creation of the American Republic under the United States Constitution of 1787, the Bill of Rights in 1790, the development of Federal and State laws and institutions, the liberties defined in the constitution over the next three decades, and the War of 1812 or "Second War of Independence". Influenced by the 18th-century European Enlightenment, and its own native American Philosophy, the American Enlightenment applied scientific reasoning to politics, science, and religion, promoted religious tolerance, and restored literature, the arts, and music as important disciplines and professions worthy of study in colleges. The "new-model" American style colleges of King's College New York (now Columbia University), and the College of Philadelphia (now Penn) were founded, Yale College and the College of William & Mary were reformed, and a non-denominational moral philosophy replaced theology in many college curricula; even Puritan colleges such as the College of New Jersey (now Princeton) and Harvard reformed their curricula to include natural philosophy (science), modern astronomy, and math. The foremost representatives of the American Enlightenment included men who were Presidents of Colonial Colleges: Puritan religious leaders President Jonathan Edwards, President Thomas Clap, and President Ezra Stiles, and Anglican moral philosophers American President Samuel Johnson and Provost William Smith. It also included political thinkers John Adams, James Madison, James Wilson, and Alexander Hamilton, and polymaths Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson.


(I've just come back from the visit to another city for one day. I'll reply other questions later.)
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Wed 30 Jul, 2014 09:42 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
What is significant here, is that you're playing this idiotic game about Jefferson because you continue to attempt to avoid the gaffe you made about Americans--who were christians--allegedly attempting to attack christianity during the revolution. You have consistently refused to address this gross and hilarious error on your part.


You're still hiding behind your Jefferson smoke screen. It appears that you don't intend to ever address the gross error you made about Americans and christianity.
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jul, 2014 11:39 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Setanta wrote:
What is significant here, is that you're playing this idiotic game about Jefferson because you continue to attempt to avoid the gaffe you made about Americans--who were christians--allegedly attempting to attack christianity during the revolution. You have consistently refused to address this gross and hilarious error on your part.


You're still hiding behind your Jefferson smoke screen. It appears that you don't intend to ever address the gross error you made about Americans and christianity.




When have I ever hidden behind the so-called smoke screen? I simply pointed out that Jefferson said "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man," which induced your knee jerk reaction. And then you strained every muscle of you to hit him as hard as you could, reducing him to nothing. Worse, you spouted something ridiculous like "even a Jefferson's dog could be elected as a President of the United States then." You've insulted American people seriously as though that the Contitution didn't exist at that time, that the wisdom of the people had vaporized into thin air, that they were as dumb as puppets. You are exactly the maker of "Jefferson smoke screen," Setanta. And now you turn hilariously to accuse me as hiding behind the screen. How hypocritical you are?

At the time of the American Revolution, both sides, Great Britain and "the United States", read the same Bible and prayed to the same God, wasn't it the self-destruction of Christianity? America won, and the Christianity in Great Britain was severely weakened to a state religion that nobody believes to this day (@Contrex, is this one of the good reasons?). American poeple, ipso facto, greatly dispirited Christian soldiers of Great Britain and damaged their morale and destroyed their confidence on their God, or Jesus Christ!
 

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