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The way of freely thinking in English

Forums: English, Esl, Grammar
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JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2014 06:21 pm
@Ragman,
That certainly didn't address the language issues, Ragman. Can you point to one of your posts that did?
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2014 07:11 pm
@JTT,
JTT wrote:

Quote:
Your opinion will be appreciated.
Is the following sentence crystal clear and sound natural in English?

For a scientist, a great man, if there is one, is not for worship; rather, on whose shoulders we can set our feet and thus stand higher.


Did you want to say,

Great scientists, if there are any, are not for worship, rather, they are those on whose shoulders we can stand in order to climb higher and see farther.


Good rewriting, JTT.
But it seems narrow-minded to confine to "scientists' shoulders" - while I meant "a great man" in society and in any field.
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2014 07:13 pm
@dalehileman,
dalehileman wrote:

To a scientist the so-called "great man," if in fact there exists any such being, is not intended for worship; rather it is he upon whose shoulders we can set our feet in order to ourselves stand higher



Better! Dale, thank you.
Still I feel there is something that needs to be improved in your rewriting.
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2014 07:15 pm
@Ragman,
Ragman wrote:

Not in my mind ..not crystal clear; however, it's form is prose and, as such, needs a different set of 'ears'. Is that something you wrote?


Yes, I did.
0 Replies
 
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2014 07:21 pm
@contrex,
contrex wrote:

For a scientist, a great man or woman, if there is one, is not for worship; rather, they are someone upon whose shoulders we can set our feet and thus see further.



That's it, Contrex, thanks a lot.
Two questions remain:
1) Can we remove "or woman" to make it sound traditionally wise? Would a feminist so easily offended? It seems not.
2) "See further" sounds very natural and logical. I wonder why "stand higher" doesn't work.
0 Replies
 
Ragman
 
  2  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2014 07:22 pm
@oristarA,
Personally, no offense to Dale...but Dale's version is awkward and far too wordy.

Contrex's version seems best so far.
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2014 07:28 pm
@Ragman,
Ragman wrote:

I'd eliminate the phrase "if there is one" . IMHO, it adds nothing particularly useful. It subtracts by its presence as it adds noise.


It may serve as a buffer when leave out "or woman". Or feminists would make an uproar.
Ragman
 
  2  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2014 07:32 pm
@oristarA,
Personally, I disagree with that assessment. It is superfluous.

The scientist may be perceived as either male or female as the title of scientist is not gender-specific inherently - even though in practice, there are disproportionately represented with males. Political correctness doesn't need to rear its ugly head here, IMHO.
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2014 08:46 pm
@Ragman,
Ragman wrote:

Personally, I disagree with that assessment. It is superfluous.

The scientist may be perceived as either male or female as the title of scientist is not gender-specific inherently - even though in practice, there are disproportionately represented with males. Political correctness doesn't need to rear its ugly head here, IMHO.


How about this?

For a scientist, a great man is not for worship; rather, he's someone upon whose shoulders we can set our feet and thus see further.

Or:

For a scientist, a great man is not for worship; rather, he's someone upon whose shoulders we can set our feet and thus stand higher.
Ragman
 
  2  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2014 09:00 pm
@oristarA,
Seeing you're working on this some more, I'd try to take the gender reference out of it. As an example, I'd offer this as suggestion :

"For scientists, greatness is not for worship; rather, they are someone upon whose shoulders we can set our feet and thus stand higher."

cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2014 09:02 pm
@Ragman,
Sounds pretty good to me! Mr. Green
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2014 09:11 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Gee, the two language doofuses, Ragman and CI, agree.
Ragman
 
  2  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2014 09:14 pm
@JTT,
Sling away with your jaundiced critical views but exactly how does your derision help oristarA with his language query? Perhaps you might stick to the topic at hand, bitter old fool, that you are!
oristarA
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2014 09:15 pm
@Ragman,
Ragman wrote:

Seeing you're working on this some more, I'd try to take the gender reference out of it. As an example, I'd offer this as suggestion :

"For scientists, greatness is not for worship; rather, they are someone upon whose shoulders we can set our feet and thus stand higher."



I must make clear that the background of the writing is to break up the idolism of "the great man" (for example, mao in China, whose image is still "great" in the heart of some scientists in the developing country). That is why I wrote "a great man, if there is one"). I was talking to some scientists and doctors in China.

JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2014 09:15 pm
@oristarA,
Quote:
But it seems narrow-minded to confine to "scientists'


That was what I thought you meant, Ori. For your meaning, I'd use,

To a scientist, a great person/individual ...

In this day and age, I think it'd be overly sexist to use the male gender.
0 Replies
 
Ragman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2014 09:16 pm
@oristarA,
Without your supplying this as the context, there is no way I could properly advise you here.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2014 09:18 pm
@Ragman,
That definitely needs some revision, Ragman. You should start a thread and ask for some help.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  4  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2014 09:19 pm
@oristarA,
You need to give context on anything you write, or the person attempting to help you correct the sentence can only respond from what you have shared. We are not mind-readers.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2014 09:20 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Excellent point, CI.
0 Replies
 
knaivete
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jul, 2014 11:17 pm
@oristarA,
Quote:
For a scientist, a great man, if there is one, is not for worship; rather, on whose shoulders we can set our feet and thus stand higher.


Perhaps Newton could also be considered one of the greatest plagiarists, to coin a phrase?

Quote:
The metaphor of dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants (Latin: nanos gigantum humeris insidentes) expresses the meaning of "discovering truth by building on previous discoveries". While it can be traced to at least the 12th century, attributed to Bernard of Chartres, its most familiar expression in English is found a 1676 letter of Isaac Newton:


If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/Library_of_Congress%2C_Rosenwald_4%2C_Bl._5r.jpg/220px-Library_of_Congress%2C_Rosenwald_4%2C_Bl._5r.jpg

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR15kDzbchMwY81u071A0vy243AjU9d8VfhqkmF5511XvqeqVjK
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_giants
 

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