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Canada Believes Saddam Had WMD

 
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 07:39 am
farmerman wrote:
Im sitting here with a cold beverage and some UTZ potato chips.waiting to hear how Occams Razor provides us with a comfortable fact filled answer to your proposition .
Certain we were, that the chemical agent Sarin was in the hands of Hussein I certainly would have mobilized the Alabama National Guard to Invade Iraq, had this Sarin shell been known to exist 15 months ago. Why this shell could, alone have been the one that rolled off the truck that was escaping to Syria containing the rest of the Sarin filled shells that now , alas are in the hands of others because we invaded Iraq because we were sure they had Sarin filled shells.
Does that reasoning somehow sound a bit circular? Our administration feels not.
This sounds like a cruel parallel to the story behind the old Arlo Guthrie song,"Alices Restaurant" ,wherein ,ARlo, our hero,felt that a big single pile of trash in a known spot was much preferred to a series of smaller piles laying about who knows where.


Imagine a dozen such shells. Not very many, right?

Each shell contains 3-4 liters of chemicals that when combined create sarin. That's between 36-48 liters of sarin.

Sarin is a colorless and odorless gas and is lethal in doses as small as .5 milligrams. Experts say sarin is more than 500 times as toxic as cyanide. It's current use is predominantly as a military chemical nerve agent. Sarin emits very toxic fumes of fluoride and phosphorus oxides when heated to decomposition or reacted with steam. At room temperature, sarin takes a liquid form, but it evaporates quickly into a gas. Sarin acts and dissipates more quickly than other nerve agents.

As you can see, 12 little shells can have quite a deadly effect if they fell into the wrong hands.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 08:39 am
Quote:
Why, in the hearts and minds of every freedom loving person on God's Green Earth.


That got a burst of laughter out of me.

You've written another very bright and humorous post. In return, I shall in the future try my darnedest to translate between Canadian and American, typing everything while humming that enticing melody from the Disney series on Mink Fink and Daniel Boone.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 08:43 am
ps

Yeah, even I want smack my avatar, likely more than does anyone else.
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farmerman
 
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Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 04:04 pm
McG, my inquiry had nothing to do with thhe toxicity of GB (sarin). We have tens of thousands of rounds of sarin in binary shells in the Edgewood arsenal near Baltimore, Im aware that its some bad stuff.
My only inquiry was , how does occams razor pertain?
Im sure what the poster was saying was that "if theres one theres more" . I suppose I could agree but . We KNEW IN 1989 THAT HUSSEIN USED GB AND MUSTARD AGENT AND VX AGAINST THE KURDS IN 1988. Was this shell part of a new stash, or a remnant of the old one?

Where are the plants to formulate the binary compounds. Lets say that Iraq bought the diflouro-methylphosphonate from Russia and then the shell casing from someone else. The reaction agent (isopropyl alcohol) should be easily acquired by standard formulation using oil field gas. If it were "home grown" thhen no evidence of the phosphonating plant was found. Every time they came across a chem rack the experts were quick to state that it was an "ag chemical" plant. This is a simple process because once the manufacturing processes are identified, its easy to see whether the plant is used for war or agriculture. The sarin or VX have no components that are used for ag, like 1080 .
I was reading Blix boys reports and the devil was in the details. It became obvious early that , if GB/VX were used, it was probably sucontracted in off shore toll plants that Saddam was paying.
So, IMHO , we bombed the wrong country

Thats where I was seeing if the conversational path would lead. Neva mind.Its unimportant to this thread. I dont agree with the Canadian PM, how many sarin plants has he seen?

See, a "WMD" program, should have a source of supply and a manufacturing site in order to be a real honest-to-god program. Thats what weve all failed to find. In the US, we proudly label our VX and GB that we store by the hundreds of thousands of tons in Dugway, Edgewood, Ft Detrich or Gainesville. We label them with the manufacturers names and code numbers
Here, Weve found a single sorry ass shell, I want to see a phosphonation plant with methylation and flouridation racks , then an isopropyl alcohol line at oil refineries where they produce an pack isopropanol into 4" diameter PVC casings with plunger ends like on a Parker pen cartridge .

If this were the Nazis, why wed have tons of carefully kept records of the feedstock, plant efficiency, daily production, productdistribution, and shell packaging for use.
Maybe the Iraqis hid all the bookkeeping also. We havent found product or evidence of a "Program". Remember how GW changed his tune from WMDs to "WMD related activity programs" , Well, IMO he was even bullshitting us on that part

In a comment about Occams Razor , HL Mencken once said. "For every problem there is an answer that is simple, unadorned , to-the-point, and usually flat wrong.
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Solon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 06:44 pm
Science has never been able to understand our need to kill each other, only intensify our methods. Any explanation to the populace of the Western powers about why they're youth are dying daily across the world is met with rapt attention, of course, so the particulars eventually are distilled into nothing. If indivuduals decide they are fit to judge whether this war was justified or not, they are only voting for themselves in a beauty contest.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 07:56 pm
Im sorry solon, your point is...
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 09:02 pm
nihilism?
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Solon
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 09:47 pm
I was unclear, excuse me; the individual details in the hunt for WMD have been lost on a public who no longer seem to have an interest in the cause of the war, but the ending of it. For better or worse, I count myself among them.
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mporter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 10:58 pm
Mr. Farmerman:

The principle of Occam's razor or, as some write it, Ockham's razor is not difficult to understand.

William of Ockham( after whom the principle is named believed that an explanation should be in as simple terms as possible, or, to put it another way, we should not posit a plurality without necessity.

A shell containing a highly dangerous(see McGentrix above) substance is found. Saddam Hussein indicated that he had no WMD's. It is obvious that Saddam Hussein lied.

An explanation in as simple terms as possible.

Of course, some on the left would like to make the explanation convoluted. McGentrix has, I believe, made a vital point. Not many of these shells loaded with sarin would be needed to destroy an entire army. We are not talking about huge ICBM's. We are talking about chemical warfare.
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NorthernNeighbour
 
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Reply Wed 19 May, 2004 11:20 pm
mporter wrote:
As I said, BoWoGo, you may be correct, however, you cannot deny, that by the mere fact of his status, a statement by the PM must affect the thinking of many Canadian citizens who have insufficient information concerning WMD's.


You may be surprised to find, mporter, that we Canadians are a lot more informed than many, many, many Americans. There's been a lot to talk about since before this war began...we've watched it unfold too...perhaps with more information, background and insight than you get south of the border. Fortunately for us there has been and continues be a wealth of programming including discussion panels, call-in shows, documentaries...and the list goes on and on. Most of us know exactly that Dubya's claims have been a load of horse...s...it and nothing Martin says will convince us otherwise. I suggest you try and get access to CBC Newsworld International (apparently available on satellite tv in the US). I tune it to our CBC National news on the internet when I'm in the US after I've watched American news.

At any rate, I do believe that if Paul Martin had been PM when this fiasco started that we'd be in Iraq now too, although he now claims that Chretien took the right decision. Didn't like Chretien much and it was time for him to retire, but he did do one thing for which I'll always remember him....three guesses and the first two don't count.
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mporter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2004 12:06 am
Dear Northern Neighbour:

I am very sorry but I remain unconvinced people who live in Canada can truly understand the political philosophy of the United States, the voting habits of its citizens and the nuances that enter into the choices that its voters make.

You may not be aware that a famous ex-leader of the House, one "Tip O'Neill" said:

"all politics is local"

Since I am certain that you do not have the requisite knowledge, as a Canadian, of either the nuances or the local issues in American politics, I am very much afraid that your commentary is rather lame.

I suggest that your so called "information, background and insight" are therefore useless since they are not informed by the essential elements which must be reviewed by anyone who wishes to look into the motives of the voter in the USA.

I am reminded of a quip made by the famous George Bernard Shaw. After the end of one of his plays, Mr. Shaw appeared on the stage for a curtain call. One of the audience booed loudly just as the applause died down and said:

"Your play was a disaster" and "You are a charlatan"

Shaw replied:

"I hasten to assure you, sir, that, as you have observed, the rest of this audience does not agree with your opinion about my play and, as for your comment that I am a charlatan, I am amused that you know so much about a subject with which I am intimately acquainted- myself"


Therefore, sir, I would suggest that you take more time to repair your failing monetary system before you make comments about the political makeup of a country you cannot know very much about not being a citizen of that country.

The ignorance that evidently lies behind your borders was aptly unfolded as one of your compatriots insisted that evidence that I brought forward from a Time Magazine article did not exist.

It did.

If this is an example of the thinking that goes on in Canada, there is no doubt that it is short sighted and egregriously mistaken.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2004 05:28 am
mporter, whats so difficult to understand. I find the average Canadian much more informed about our system of manufactured and spun news than we are of theirs. Besides, this is an international forum, stop being such a hall monitor, you may learn something

Your use of occams razor and Mcgs support of your post had , in its approach, left me with many smiles. Ive asked you how occams razor pertains and I get
1 a download discussion of the toxicity of sarin and
2 a definition of occams razor

You guys. I asked you what time it is and you tell me how to build a clock.

Occams razor sez nothing valid because a similar , simply derived explanation is that this sarin shell represents a left over shell from the 80s, when we all agree, Saddam, had gassed his own citizens with an assortment of toxic gases. Of course we neither attacked him then (reasons?) and , whhen we had some international support to get him in 1991, we stopped. (reasons?)

I certainly wouldnt have launched a world class invasion of a country based upon all the WMD **** weve found to date. Simply stated, were scrambling around trying to justify , AT THE BACK END OF A WAR, that the reason we went there unprovoked, was entirelyjustified and is supported by our well crafted pre-war information.
Now doesnt this seem a teeny bit disingenuous? Dont you feel scammed? are you so much of a party faithful that you have no critical mind of your own?
pity

As for Mr Martin, hes certainly allowed to present an opinion on anything he wishes, correct or not. Like you, he feels that WMDs are there. The fact that the vast majority of people are yelling "lets find these WMDs if they exist at all" and, that of course, leads to the conclusion of"who are you guys trying to fool with all this bogus "intelligence"?"
We now count the US Secretary of State who, by questioning his own adopted administration, is trying to recapture some of his lost credibility.

.Finding a sarin filled shell has ,like the 5 loaves and 7 fishes, become 12 shells by McG, and now you are implying that this represents a big CHECKMARK in the "found WMD" column. We havent found any infrastructure that accounts for a PROGRAM of WMDs THAT REPRESENTED AN IMMINENT THREAT. Do you not agree?
We havent found a nuclear enrichment plant
We havent found uranium processing facilities to make hex, a step that preceeds enrichment
We havent found chem racks capable of producing poison gases
We have found one shell and a bunch of old Al Sammoud missiles from 1991
We have found plans for weapons , processing, and essentially a "wish list" of WMDs. "He lusted in his mind for WMDs"

Could it be that Hussein didnt represent a WMD threat so our invasion was based on partly manufactured information?
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2004 06:33 am
Didn't someone say earlier that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"?

Tarantulas produced an interesting article about finding a weapons cache being buried. You should read it and realize that we may yet find the WMD's that are there.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2004 06:52 am
McGentrix wrote:
Didn't someone say earlier that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"?
Yes, Rumsfeld said that. But it is effectively meaningless in this context. One can't proof a negative ("prove to me their are no elephants whose nostrils are green on the inside") but so what? There's a point where continued insistence that 'we still don't know' becomes not just disingenuous, but more properly seen as a falsehood.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2004 08:56 am
have you ever seen an elephant with green nostrils? Were they in a circus? were all those elephants killed to keep them from breeding more elephants with green nostrils? Is there proper evidence that those elephants were killed? Can you prove that they are not just hiding those elephants?

Your hyperbole just doesn't work in this instance.

Saddam had WMD's. Saddam used WMD's. Saddam lied about WMD's.

Based on that, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I doubt David Copperfield made them just disappear.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2004 09:09 am
McG

I was pointing to the silly meaninglessness of Rumsfeld's line, which becomes even moreso as time goes on.

But I'm not going to debate with you about the matter of WOMD in Iraq. The UN weapons inspectors, and even the survey team under Kay, handpicked as being more favorable to the US administration's views, conclude rather differently than do you. I'll count them more credible than yourself.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2004 09:13 am
They also concluded that at no time did they have full access to all inspection sites nor did they have full cooperation from Iraqi scientists or leaders.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2004 10:02 am
uh....Kay?
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2004 11:01 am
Text of David Kay's unclassified statement

Lot's of stuff, read it.

Pertinent sections:

Quote:
-snip-
I cannot emphasize too strongly that the Interim Progress Report, which has been made available to you, is a snapshot, in the context of an on --going investigation, of where we are after our first three months of work. The report does not represent a final reckoning of Iraq's WMD programs, nor are we at the point where we are prepared to close the file on any of these programs.

-snip-

We need to recall that in the 1991-2003 period the intelligence community and the UN/IAEA inspectors had to draw conclusions as to the status of Iraq's WMD program in the face of incomplete, and often false, data supplied by Iraq or data collected either by UN/IAEA inspectors operating within the severe constraints that Iraqi security and deception actions imposed or by national intelligence collection systems with their own inherent limitations.

The result was that our understanding of the status of Iraq's WMD program was always bounded by large uncertainties and had to be heavily caveated.

-snip-

We have not yet found stocks of weapons, but we are not yet at the point where we can say definitively either that such weapon stocks do not exist or that they existed before the war and our only task is to find where they have gone.

We are actively engaged in searching for such weapons based on information being supplied to us by Iraqis.

Why are we having such difficulty in finding weapons or in reaching a confident conclusion that they do not exist or that they once existed but have been removed? Our search efforts are being hindered by six principal factors:

1. From birth, all of Iraq's WMD activities were highly compartmentalized within a regime that ruled and kept its secrets through fear and terror and with deception and denial built into each program;

2. Deliberate dispersal and destruction of material and documentation related to weapons programs began pre-conflict and ran trans-to-post conflict;

3. Post-OIF looting destroyed or dispersed important and easily collectable material and forensic evidence concerning Iraq's WMD program. As the report covers in detail, significant elements of this looting were carried out in a systematic and deliberate manner, with the clear aim of concealing pre-OIF activities of Saddam's regime;

4. Some WMD personnel crossed borders in the pre/trans conflict period and may have taken evidence and even weapons-related materials with them;

5. Any actual WMD weapons or material is likely to be small in relation to the total conventional armaments footprint and difficult to near impossible to identify with normal search procedures. It is important to keep in mind that even the bulkiest materials we are searching for, in the quantities we would expect to find, can be concealed in spaces not much larger than a two car garage;

6. The environment in Iraq remains far from permissive for our activities, with many Iraqis that we talk to reporting threats and overt acts of intimidation and our own personnel being the subject of threats and attacks. In September alone we have had three attacks on ISG facilities or teams: The ISG base in Irbil was bombed and four staff injured, two very seriously; a two person team had their vehicle blocked by gunmen and only escaped by firing back through their own windshield; and on Wednesday, 24 September, the ISG Headquarters in Baghdad again was subject to mortar attack.

What have we found and what have we not found in the first 3 months of our work?

We have discovered dozens of WMD-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002. The discovery of these deliberate concealment efforts have come about both through the admissions of Iraqi scientists and officials concerning information they deliberately withheld and through physical evidence of equipment and activities that ISG has discovered that should have been declared to the UN. Let me just give you a few examples of these concealment efforts, some of which I will elaborate on later:

· A clandestine network of laboratories and safehouses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service that contained equipment subject to UN monitoring and suitable for continuing CBW research.

· A prison laboratory complex, possibly used in human testing of BW agents, that Iraqi officials working to prepare for UN inspections were explicitly ordered not to declare to the UN.

· Reference strains of biological organisms concealed in a scientist's home, one of which can be used to produce biological weapons.

· New research on BW-applicable agents, Brucella and Congo Crimean Hemorrhagic Fever (CCHF), and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin were not declared to the UN.

· Documents and equipment, hidden in scientists' homes, that would have been useful in resuming uranium enrichment by centrifuge and electromagnetic isotope separation (EMIS).

· A line of UAVs not fully declared at an undeclared production facility and an admission that they had tested one of their declared UAVs out to a range of 500 km, 350 km beyond the permissible limit.

· Continuing covert capability to manufacture fuel propellant useful only for prohibited SCUD variant missiles, a capability that was maintained at least until the end of 2001 and that cooperating Iraqi scientists have said they were told to conceal from the UN.

· Plans and advanced design work for new long-range missiles with ranges up to at least 1000 km -- well beyond the 150 km range limit imposed by the UN. Missiles of a 1000 km range would have allowed Iraq to threaten targets through out the Middle East, including Ankara, Cairo, and Abu Dhabi.

· Clandestine attempts between late-1999 and 2002 to obtain from North Korea technology related to 1,300 km range ballistic missiles --probably the No Dong -- 300 km range anti-ship cruise missiles, and other prohibited military equipment.

In addition to the discovery of extensive concealment efforts, we have been faced with a systematic sanitization of documentary and computer evidence in a wide range of offices, laboratories, and companies suspected of WMD work. The pattern of these efforts to erase evidence -- hard drives destroyed, specific files burned, equipment cleaned of all traces of use -- are ones of deliberate, rather than random, acts.

For example,

· On 10 July 2003 an ISG team exploited the Revolutionary Command Council (RCC) Headquarters in Baghdad. The basement of the main building contained an archive of documents situated on well-organized rows of metal shelving. The basement suffered no fire damage despite the total destruction of the upper floors from coalition air strikes. Upon arrival the exploitation team encountered small piles of ash where individual documents or binders of documents were intentionally destroyed. Computer hard drives had been deliberately destroyed. Computers would have had financial value to a random looter; their destruction, rather than removal for resale or reuse, indicates a targeted effort to prevent Coalition forces from gaining access to their contents.

· All IIS laboratories visited by IIS exploitation teams have been clearly sanitized, including removal of much equipment, shredding and burning of documents, and even the removal of nameplates from office doors.

· Although much of the deliberate destruction and sanitization of documents and records probably occurred during the height of OIF combat operations, indications of significant continuing destruction efforts have been found after the end of major combat operations, including entry in May 2003 of the locked gated vaults of the Ba'ath party intelligence building in Baghdad and highly selective destruction of computer hard drives and data storage equipment along with the burning of a small number of specific binders that appear to have contained financial and intelligence records, and in July 2003 a site exploitation team at the Abu Ghurayb Prison found one pile of the smoldering ashes from documents that was still warm to the touch.

-snip-
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 May, 2004 04:44 pm
Text of Kay's subsequent statemtent...paraphrased from memory...

We haven't found any WMD, and we're unlikely to ever find any WMD of significance because it appears that Iraq destroyed its pre-1991 stocks years ago and hadn't produced any WMD since 1991.
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