15
   

As A Wise Man, Umm, Guy, Once Said

 
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2014 07:47 pm
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:

The belief that Iraq might have acquired more Chemical Weapons in the years no one was paying attention to him might have been widespread at the time by Americans, however, not that many people were biting off the bit to go to war so much so that they couldn't let the process of the weapons inspections play itself out and just when it was looking like it wasn't going their way, decide they just had to go to keep from us from an attack in the form of "mushroom clouds." Moreover, there was plenty of descent in the intelligence reports to spread enough doubt to at least wait until the weapons report and the UN thing got finished doing what they were sent in Iraq to do. In other words they rushed into war regardless of the wisdom of caution of which they had plenty of reason to wait and then said basically, "well we didn't know, oops."

Twelve years is some rush! What about nuclear and biological weapons programs?
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2014 07:48 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Found it as reprint at Libanvision. The interview really seems to have been in French and not in English as your quotation suggests. (If it is a translation, it should be done correctly.) And there's more than those sentences in the original version (if Libanvision archived the interview correctly)

Perhaps you would care to translate the specific quotation correctly and show how the translation alters the meaning.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2014 07:49 pm
@Brandon9000,
There was hysteria in the air at the time Bush laid out his blanket of lies. Many politicians were stampeded into voting his way. But the underlying lie was always so and cannot be changed, ever.
Brandon9000
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2014 07:50 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

There was hysteria in the air at the time Bush laid out his blanket of lies. Many politicians were stampeded into voting his way. But the underlying lie was always so and cannot be changed, ever.

But you cannot tell me what the lie is.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2014 08:19 pm
I told you the lie(s) but you refuse to look at the forest because your vision is blocked by the trees. I can't help what appears to me to be willful ignorance. You appear to be too smart to for this, so I can only guess ideological blinders.
glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2014 09:31 pm
@Brandon9000,
Brandon, many people have explained this to you, unfortunately we can not understand it for you. The idea that no one was paying attention to Iraq is specious. You may not have been paying attention, but following Gulf I, a no fly zone was established and Saddam was contained. Every so often Iraqi fighters would violate the space, but US fighters could easily handle them. Saddam needed to save face, every so often he would test boundaries to prevent the surrounding crazy Arabs states from invading.

I remember vividly watching Bush in an address to the American people as he laid the ground work leading up to justification to invade Iraq. He alluded to all the atrocities Saddam perpetrated prior to his invasion into Kuwait. Bush 41, beat the Iraqis back and basically neutered Saddams WMD ambitions. President Clinton foiled an assassination attempt by Saddam aimed at George H. W. Bush. I don't recall conservative zealots singing Clinton's praises, but I
do understand how easy it would be for a dry drunk to be easily led by a band of appointed zealots to mangle the intelligence.

I began working for DOD during LBJ administration, but I've never, ever seen anything like Wolfowitz or Cheney hammering the intelligence community, demanding to cherry pick raw intell in an effort to prove the unprovable. It was like working for jealous spouses who already dug into the idea their spouse was cheating and glommed onto the slimmest thread of evidence to prove their warped idea of truth. I don't know if Bush really thought there was a honest threat of WMD, or he was convinced by hawkish lackeys eager to play presidential partners. The TRUTH, it turns out, was that there were no WMD's so the administration repackaged it as regime change.

The sad fact is, that even though other countries may have brutal dictators, Tito kept the former Yugoslavia from descending into chaos, and Saddam prevented religious factions from destroying Iraq. Tito and Saddam were monsters, but at least we were not sending young Americans or young Allies off to be killed in the vainglorious attempt to bring our version of democracy to the oppressed. Oh, hang on a mo, Clinton was finally shamed into restoring order in the splintered areas much like the UN was finally sent into Rwanda to stop the genocide.

It's easy to take the moral high road when you don't have skin in the game, you may reconsider this crusader mentality if the US is forced to bring back the draft.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2014 11:43 pm
@Brandon9000,
I think that your translation is possible but out of the context.
It's to be seen as a backup to the original question and Chirac's full response to it .... and actually, just on a minor note, you could have mentioned that it your quote is a translation from French.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Jun, 2014 11:52 pm
@glitterbag,
Quote:
Tito and Saddam were necessary monsters


Fixed. Because idiots set up national boundaries which make no sense.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 17 Jun, 2014 12:54 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
Fixed. Because idiots set up national boundaries which make no sense.
At least for Yugoslavia, those boundaries had been there since ... hmmm ... the Middle Ages? (I suppose that are are referring to the state, composed of several formerly kingdoms/countries, pre-1918).
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jun, 2014 01:55 am
@Brandon9000,
Saddam Hussein did not have WMDs, fact. When Bush said he did, he was lying, fact.

Now you can run around trying to find sources to justify that lie, and quotations from other idiots who also believed the lie, but it's still a lie.
Brandon9000
 
  2  
Reply Tue 17 Jun, 2014 05:11 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:

I told you the lie(s) but you refuse to look at the forest because your vision is blocked by the trees. I can't help what appears to me to be willful ignorance. You appear to be too smart to for this, so I can only guess ideological blinders.

You suggested the lie was that Iraq probably had WMD. I countered with an argument that many people at the time believed this and that there is no reason not to think that Bush did. If he believed it, it wasn't a lie. You have no answer whatever for this except to descend into name calling. If you are right and I am wrong, why can't you argue your point? What is your evidence that Bush didn't actually believe this commonly held and not unreasonable idea?
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Tue 17 Jun, 2014 05:17 pm
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:
You suggested the lie was that Iraq probably had WMD.


There's no probably about it, Bush said Saddam definitely had WMD's. Saddam definitely didn't have any.

Those who considered there was a possibility he might have them, outside of Bush's axis of evil, wanted Hans Blix to be allowed to do his job, they didn't want a bloody invasion and occupation.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jun, 2014 05:21 pm
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:
What is your evidence that Bush didn't actually believe this commonly held and not unreasonable idea?


it was not commonly held outside of a particular US population

it was not a reasonable idea/belief

if Bush was provided with such poor intelligence and was somehow unable to find out the truth - which was covered in media around the world , you're saying something even more disturbing about his presidency than him simply lying
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jun, 2014 05:23 pm
@glitterbag,
glitterbag wrote:

Brandon, many people have explained this to you, unfortunately we can not understand it for you.


perhaps that was Bush 43's problem as well
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jun, 2014 05:30 pm
@glitterbag,
glitterbag wrote:
Brandon, many people have explained this to you, unfortunately we can not understand it for you.

A specious argument technique which could just as easily be used against you. You have to actually prove your points.

glitterbag wrote:
The idea that no one was paying attention to Iraq is specious. You may not have been paying attention, but following Gulf I, a no fly zone was established and Saddam was contained. Every so often Iraqi fighters would violate the space, but US fighters could easily handle them. Saddam needed to save face, every so often he would test boundaries to prevent the surrounding crazy Arabs states from invading.

How do you contain someone if they develop nuclear or biological weapons? That's an old fashioned model which doesn't work for WMD. One use of one of these weapons could kill hundreds of thousands of people. Someone with nuclear or biological weapons could even hide the components in Coke machines and re-assemble them in the target country. They could even do this in the US. How effective would planes flying over Iraq be if a plague was started or a nuke detonated in New York or Washington, DC? It was necessary to determine absolutely whether or not Iraq had the weapons programs and stop them if they still existed.

glitterbag wrote:
I remember vividly watching Bush in an address to the American people as he laid the ground work leading up to justification to invade Iraq. He alluded to all the atrocities Saddam perpetrated prior to his invasion into Kuwait. Bush 41, beat the Iraqis back and basically neutered Saddams WMD ambitions. President Clinton foiled an assassination attempt by Saddam aimed at George H. W. Bush. I don't recall conservative zealots singing Clinton's praises, but I
do understand how easy it would be for a dry drunk to be easily led by a band of appointed zealots to mangle the intelligence.

I began working for DOD during LBJ administration, but I've never, ever seen anything like Wolfowitz or Cheney hammering the intelligence community, demanding to cherry pick raw intell in an effort to prove the unprovable. It was like working for jealous spouses who already dug into the idea their spouse was cheating and glommed onto the slimmest thread of evidence to prove their warped idea of truth. I don't know if Bush really thought there was a honest threat of WMD, or he was convinced by hawkish lackeys eager to play presidential partners.

Since Iraq had been actively developing these weapons, since Saddam Hussein wasn't allowing the UN inspectors free access to inspect, as the UN itself repeatedly declared, since he was known to be a very evil person, and since he thirsted for power as demonstrated, for example, by his invasion of Kuwait, it really was a valid question to ask whether he had destroyed the research programs or merely hidden them. Someone like Saddam Hussein could not be allowed to control these super-weapons. The answer had to be obtained and peaceful persuasion wasn't working. Even if Wolfowitz and Cheney and all the other ones of your demons were doing these horrid things to provoke an invasion, which I do not believe, it only means that they did the right thing for the wrong reason or in the wrong way. Invading Iraq to determine whether there were still WMD research programs was better than taking the chance that Saddam Hussein would one day succeed in developing nuclear or biological weapons.


glitterbag wrote:
The TRUTH, it turns out, was that there were no WMD's so the administration repackaged it as regime change.

Which we know only because we went in. Evil and aggressive dictators cannot be allowed to acquire nuclear or biological weapons if we can stop it.

glitterbag wrote:
The sad fact is, that even though other countries may have brutal dictators, Tito kept the former Yugoslavia from descending into chaos, and Saddam prevented religious factions from destroying Iraq. Tito and Saddam were monsters, but at least we were not sending young Americans or young Allies off to be killed in the vainglorious attempt to bring our version of democracy to the oppressed.

False analogy. Did we believe that Tito was developing nuclear or biological weapons and simply stalling for enough time to complete them?

glitterbag wrote:
Oh, hang on a mo, Clinton was finally shamed into restoring order in the splintered areas much like the UN was finally sent into Rwanda to stop the genocide.

It's easy to take the moral high road when you don't have skin in the game, you may reconsider this crusader mentality if the US is forced to bring back the draft.

Attempting to impeach the character of the poster is irrelevant. Assertions have to be debated based on their merits, not their origins.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jun, 2014 05:31 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

I think that your translation is possible but out of the context.
It's to be seen as a backup to the original question and Chirac's full response to it .... and actually, just on a minor note, you could have mentioned that it your quote is a translation from French.

So tell me how taking that excerpt in context reverses its meaning.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jun, 2014 05:33 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

Saddam Hussein did not have WMDs, fact. When Bush said he did, he was lying, fact.

Now you can run around trying to find sources to justify that lie, and quotations from other idiots who also believed the lie, but it's still a lie.

Bush said that Iraq probably had WMD or WMD programs (a common opinion at the time) and that since peaceful persuasion had failed, we simply had to go in and find out. That was the opinion of many. Stating an opinion which is later shown to be wrong is not a lie.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jun, 2014 05:50 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
What is your evidence that Bush didn't actually believe this commonly held and not unreasonable idea?


it was not commonly held outside of a particular US population

it was not a reasonable idea/belief

if Bush was provided with such poor intelligence and was somehow unable to find out the truth - which was covered in media around the world , you're saying something even more disturbing about his presidency than him simply lying

Alexander Downer, Australian foreign minister, in 2003:


Mr Speaker

This is not just an issue about Iraq - it is about our future.

It is about whether the international community's will as expressed through the Security Council, amounts to any more than words.

It is about whether the world has any choice but other than to live in the constant fear of chemical, biological and nuclear weapons left in the hands of vicious dictators.

glitterbag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Jun, 2014 06:54 pm
@Brandon9000,
I'm sure a smart, but stubborn, young person has heard of satellites. What do you think they are used for, television shows and phone calls? Can you possibly think of another application????

During the Stone Age, we used jets to run surveillance over areas the US saw as problematic. Kennedy actually published the photos showing how the USSR was installing missiles on Cuban Soil. If your great great great grandfather is still alive, ask him how serious the American public took that threat. I believe you can still find information regarding "The Cuban Missile Crisis". Kennedy engaged Kruchev in a game of nuclear chicken. Kruchev blinked first.

So, after 9/11, without a rational, Bush decided to abandon the search for Bin Laden, because his advisors convinced him Saddam was attempting to develop WMD. He may have believed the lie, but it was still a lie. Wolofowitz, Cheney, Rumsfeld hammered away at their suspicions to force leadership of the intell agencies to back them up, and since the leadership are appointed, it was easier to give the war criminals what they wanted.

What should keep you up at night is that the decisions made to invade Iraq were based solely on the fears of a handful of advisors who were not capable of interpreting the intelligence. They refused to believe the people who worked intell for decades and chose instead to go with their gut.

What everybody else should worry about, is that you are so poorly informed you actually believe you are in a debate. I hate to trot out an old adage, but, you are entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts. So deny all you want, more knowledgable people will be embarrassed for you. You actually embody what the rest of the world thinks of Americans. You make my country look like a bunch of hayseeds. I resent that, because you're just another lazy dope who thinks they know everything. I consider you a blemish on the integrity of my country. How can you possibly be so dense???? Nevermind, I know why.
revelette2
 
  3  
Reply Tue 17 Jun, 2014 08:03 pm
@Brandon9000,

Quote:
Twelve years is some rush!


You are being obtuse. The rush was in not waiting for the weapons inspections to be completed before rushing off to war.
 

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