24
   

Just Curious. What Are You?

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 May, 2014 08:33 am
Which is to say, that claim was never mathematically proven.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 May, 2014 08:52 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

It should be noted that these are historical artifacts. It is silly to claim that there are immutable mathematical "laws" which govern political science. Political science is science in exactly the same sense as Christian Science.

I'm not saying this, set. And I'm no political scientist either so I welcome other views. All I am saying is that election rules place national or local polities under a specific incentive structure. Certain strategies work better in certain systems. A first past the post (FPTP) system rewards large parties and undercuts small ones. The premium given to all-encompassing, "wide tent" parties will lead players on each side of the aisle to seek shelter and success within a broad-base party.

The two US parties have created the primary system which allows them to "count" themselves, arbitrate leadership and forge coalitions, thus creating a two-round system of sorts, as you pointed out yourself. The difference with a bona fide two-round election system is that the parties control the first round, not the constitution / state. Thus reinforcing their control over the system.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 May, 2014 08:53 am
@Olivier5,
Sorry, I x x y should read Izzy (soddin spell check)
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 May, 2014 08:57 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
I'm not saying this, set.


However . . .

Olivier5 wrote:
It can be mathematically proven that a system with just one round of voting cannot work well with more than two parties.


Olivier5 wrote:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duverger's_law

It's just common sense...If there is only one round, any vote for someone else than the two top contenders is a vote wasted...


Ooops!
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Sat 24 May, 2014 09:11 am
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

that isn't mathematical evidence and it's not the on-the-ground reality

Canada sees 3 and 4 parties switch and change lead roles with surprising regularity.

I prefer minority governments by far - a lot more is accomplished when there are minorities. People have to compromise and move things forward in minority governments.

The math is simple enough. Take a US presidential election. Imagine 4 candidates: a leftist liberal, a centrist democrat, a centrist republican, and a tea-party candidate. The sort of things that would happen if the GOP and the democrat party both were to split. Assuming that the US voting population follows a Gauss curve on most issues (=assuming it is not too polarised, which may be assuming too much nowadays but has historically been the case), the two centrist candidates stand a better chance of winning than the two extremists.

Under such a situation, a winning strategy on both sides is to seek compromise and convince the extremist candidate to desist. If, say, the liberal desists from the vote but not the tea party candidate, the centrist democrat will most certainly win because his opposition is divided. So both centrist candidates will try and horse trade with his outlier, eg giving him/her a place on his ticket. This will over time lead politicians to seek broad-based compromises and parties, because division is lethal.

This can be modeled in game theory, which is what I meant by "mathematically proven"... an overstatement for sure.

0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 May, 2014 09:26 am
@Setanta,
Quote:

However...

Olivier5 wrote:

It can be mathematically proven that a system with just one round of voting cannot work well with more than two parties.

Touché. That was over the top. "Work well" is vague in any case. What I should have said from the start is: FPTP voting tends to favor a two party system.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 May, 2014 12:44 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
A first past the post (FPTP) system rewards large parties and undercuts small ones.


how do you explain parties coming into existence ... with one or two members ... and then leading/controlling governments?

how does this explain parties that were formerly one of two main parties virtually disappearing from the political landscape?
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 May, 2014 12:50 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
A third party can appear and take root, but this often results in a strong attrition of another party, so the system keeps evolving towards a two party equilibrium.


Canadians seem to hate the idea of "two party equilibrium". We tend to go for three or four parties compromising and balancing control. Almost every time one or two parties seems to feel too solid, one or both of them is decimated by the electorate.

I quite enjoy our system. I've been following it with a fair bit of interest since I was a kid as my parents (my mother in particular) were political junkies.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 May, 2014 01:50 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
how do you explain parties coming into existence ... with one or two members ... and then leading/controlling governments?

Because they keep trying, until one of the two biggies messes up big time and loses credibility.

Quote:
how does this explain parties that were formerly one of two main parties virtually disappearing from the political landscape?

Once a big party loses predominance and is replaced by another, the theory predicts that it risks disappearing under the electoral radar., as s new pair of parties establish its dominance. Like in the rise of UK Labour in 1910-1930 annihilated the liberals, in the graph I posted upthread.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Sat 24 May, 2014 02:57 pm
@ehBeth,
I haven't followed Canadian politics, I must admit... Sad
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2014 12:46 am
@Olivier5,
I get your point but we have a coalition government, we're definitely a 3 party country, possibly a 4 party one, but only the Tory and Labour leaders stand a chance of being PM.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2014 01:12 am

Quote:
Just Curious. What Are You?

I was informed that I was the first volunteer worker
for the Conservative Party of New York approximately in 1961.
The Republican Party had been too leftist.





David
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2014 01:19 am
@OmSigDAVID,
You must be one of the founders of that party.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 May, 2014 01:27 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I knew the founders: Kieran O'Dougherty and family.

My position was too low to be considered a founder.





David
0 Replies
 
 

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