31
   

COUP IN KYIV?

 
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 9 Mar, 2014 12:27 pm
@izzythepush,
The leaders reiterated their grave concern over Russia's clear violation of international law and reaffirmed their support for Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity," a statement said.
//////////

For ****'s sakes, Izzytheputz, the USA and its NATO poodles are still in Afghanistan!!
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 9 Mar, 2014 12:36 pm
@JTT,
Is anyone keeping a count on the numbers of hypocritical statements?

Where are all the usual suspects, where's Firefly?
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Mar, 2014 03:34 pm
Blocked by sunken Russian ships, Ukraine's navy stays defiant

Myrny (Ukraine) (AFP) - Russia has deliberately sunk three of its own ships to block Ukrainian navy vessels entering a lake off the Black Sea, officers say, highlighting Moscow's determination to wear down the morale of Kiev's forces in Crimea.

The Ochakov -- a Soviet-era warship decommissioned in 2011 and set to be sold for scrap -- was towed to the entrance to Lake Donuzlav on Crimea's western coast from the Russian base at Sevastopol on Thursday and blown up.

It capsized and, along with two smaller Russian vessels, is now blocking the narrow gap between two spits of land, its hull beaten by rough Black Sea waves.

Ukraine's navy has limited resources and suffered a major blow last week when its chief Denis Berezovsky switched allegiance to the pro-Russian Crimean authorities and a new chief was appointed.

But officers at a base near where the Russians sank the ship have no doubt what the Russians were trying to do and insist they will not be shaken by the tactics.

"It is blocked so we cannot get out," said Captain Viktor Shmyganovsky, second-in-command at the base in Novoozerne, one of the four biggest in Crimea.

"If it wasn't blocked, we could have taken our ships to Odessa and it would stop them being seized by Russian forces. We would be more powerful in alliance with ships in Odessa."

Ukraine's navy headquarters is in Sevastopol, where Russia's Black Sea Fleet was founded under Imperial Russia 230 years ago, but is currently barricaded by pro-Russian militants.

Odessa, further round the coast into Ukraine and the country's largest port, offers a safer option amid the current military situation in Crimea, a semi-autonomous region of Ukraine where pro-Russian forces have seized control.

- 'Loyal to Ukraine' -

The Novoozerne base -- built by the Soviets in 1976 and dotted with decorative Cold War missiles and communications equipment -- flies the Ukrainian flag prominently and is protected by a handful of troops armed with Kalashnikovs.

While Ukrainian officers would not disclose exactly how many men are based there, it is thought to be in the dozens.

After the ships were blown up, the commander of Russia's Black Sea fleet, Admiral Alexander Vitko, came to the base trying to get them to switch sides, said Shmyganovsky.

"He wanted us to swear for the Russian people. Members of the navy gave an honourable answer to the admiral -- Ukraine's soldiers will remain faithful to Ukraine's people," the small, neatly-dressed officer added.

"A few military helicopters and planes were sent here (after the ships were sunk) and they were trying to break down our morale."

Officers at the base declined to confirm how many Ukrainian ships were currently in Lake Donuzlav, while hinting at submarine capability.

But Ukraine's navy is around a tenth of the size of Russia's and suffers from "inadequate finances", according to London-based military affairs think-tank the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS).

Ukraine only has one, Soviet-built submarine which it is currently trying to restore to "service condition after over a decade of inactivity," it adds.

Despite the odds stacking up against them, the Ukrainian navy is determined to stand its ground to the end in this storied naval territory, said Shmyganovsky.

"From history, we know that those who cannot use political means resort to weapons instead. An admiral once said Sevastopol never gives up and we can say the same about other Ukrainian navy units," he added.

"As you know, no Ukrainian navy units have put down their weapons except Admiral Berezovksy. None of the others swore for the Crimean or Russian people. We're staying loyal to the Ukrainian people."
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Mar, 2014 04:06 pm
@revelette2,
Quote:
"If it wasn't blocked, we could have taken our ships to Odessa and it would stop them being seized by Russian forces. We would be more powerful in alliance with ships in Odessa."


But, revel, if they were more powerful they would be more willing to start something and that is what the Russians are unwilling to risk when there is no need to.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Mar, 2014 06:46 pm
@izzythepush,
If Crimea (Russians) called in for help - if Crimea votes to be annexed by Russia - those issues are handled by those affected.

Who is standing in global judgement that they are in a position to "give" Putin everything he wants, as you say? Who in your statement is doing the giving?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2014 02:27 am
@Lash,
Really? You want to go back over this? Hawkeye said that the West should do nothing to stop Putin annexing Crimea despite his actions being illegal. That would be rolling over, and allowing Putin to have what ever he wanted without consequence. The West might as well gift wrap Crimea.

Now we've gone through the basics can we discuss what's happening.
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2014 02:39 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
Really? You want to go back over this?
Hawkeye said that the West should do nothing
to stop Putin annexing Crimea despite his actions being illegal.
It is probably simply an issue of WHETHER U R WILLING
TO GO TO WAR with Russia
over the point.

WHATAYATHINK, Izzy ???????





David
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2014 02:41 am
@OmSigDAVID,
No it's not David, lots of things can be done without going to war.

Everything comes down to the price of bread.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2014 02:54 am
@izzythepush,
Some just want wars at all costs.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2014 03:23 am
Conde Rice is not optimistic that the US or the EU is up to telling Putin "no!"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/condoleezza-rice-will-america-heed-the-wake-up-call-of-ukraine/2014/03/07/cf087f74-a630-11e3-84d4-e59b1709222c_story.html?hpid=z3

ending

Quote:
These global developments have not happened in response to a muscular U.S. foreign policy: Countries are not trying to “balance” American power. They have come due to signals that we are exhausted and disinterested. The events in Ukraine should be a wake-up call to those on both sides of the aisle who believe that the United States should eschew the responsibilities of leadership. If it is not heeded, dictators and extremists across the globe will be emboldened. And we will pay a price as our interests and our values are trampled in their wake.



One new problem is that Russia no longer has any good reason to not sell Iran all type of military gear, to include radar defense systems that they desperately want so that they can go head to head with Israel/USA

This is what disengagement from the world and the Obama massive cuts in military capability looks like going forwards...guys like Putin can pull our chain with impunity.
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2014 03:28 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
No it's not David, lots of things can be done without going to war.

Everything comes down to the price of bread.
Countries LUST for territory.
I doubt that anything short of troops, boots on the ground
will impress Putin enuf to back-off.





David
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2014 03:35 am
@OmSigDAVID,
A typically ignorant and oversimplified view from David.
izzythepush
 
  3  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2014 03:36 am
@OmSigDAVID,
it depends what you mean by 'back off.' Forcing Putin out of Crimea is a near impossibility, but enough, 'non military' pressure could stop him having a go at Eastern Ukraine. Targeted sanctions against wealthy individuals who back Putin, along with visa restrictions and asset freezing could have a significant effect.

Alternative energy sources, America has already discussed ways of selling its gas surplus to Europe, can, and will, have a long term impact.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2014 03:37 am
@hawkeye10,
She's got a track record of making the right call, hasn't she? Remember Iraq?
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2014 03:45 am
@Setanta,
a typical reflex from Setanta
OmSigDAVID
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2014 03:54 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:

No it's not David, lots of things can be done without going to war.

Everything comes down to the price of bread.
GOOD LUCK, with that!
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2014 03:58 am
Not a reflex, but an accurate assessment of your simple-minded claim. The Crimean peninsula was a part of the Soviet Union. Upon the break up of that organization, it became a part of the Ukraine, with the Russians keeping their military bases. Despite its drawbacks, Sebastopol remained their home base for the Black Sea fleet. (I explained earlier in the thread the symbolic importance of that base for the Russians. I suspect David has rushed into to this thread to shoot his mouth off while knowing next to nothing about the historical and the contemporary situation, and without having read the thread.) Russia intends to hang on to the Crimean peninsula for that reason, not because they "lust for territory."
panzade
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2014 04:13 am
@Setanta,
Hell! I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that Nikita K gave Crimea back to to the Ukraine.
What was up with that?
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2014 04:22 am
@panzade,
He was just mending fences. It was still a part of the Soviet Union. The formal name of the country was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. The Ukraine was the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. The Black Sea fleet and its home base were never out of Russian control.
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2014 04:46 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Quote:
a typical reflex from Setanta


Setanta wants nothing to be simple Dave. It enables him to weave the wordy winds to wow wankers with a smattering of reading.

Lust for territory has a long track record.
 

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