31
   

COUP IN KYIV?

 
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2014 09:46 am
Let's hope the new Kiev govt is better than the old one.
The old one were stupid control freaks who started the war by bullying east ukraine, so no wonder the Separatists began fighting back.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 24 Jul, 2014 09:54 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
Romeo Fabulini wrote:
The old one were stupid control freaks who started the war by bullying east ukraine, so no wonder the Separatists began fighting back.

Nonsense.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  0  
Reply Tue 29 Jul, 2014 07:01 pm
MistyRonin seemed to know what he was talking about when he said in A2K a little while ago-
"the provisional government in Kiev declared that Ukrainian would be the only official language in Ukraine. That ignited a violent insurrection at the two far east border regions Donetsk and Luhansk"

In other words the Russian-speaking far eastern areas didn't like to suddenly be told- "You can't speak Russian any more, you've got to speak Ukrainian".
No wonder they were angry and reached for their guns!


0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Wed 30 Jul, 2014 01:57 pm
The Independent: Land for gas: secret German deal could end Ukraine crisis
Quote:

Germany and Russia have been working on a secret plan to broker a peaceful solution to end international tensions over the Ukraine.

The Independent can reveal that the peace plan, being worked on by both Angela Merkel and Vladimir Putin, hinges on two main ambitions: stabilising the borders of Ukraine and providing the financially troubled country with a strong economic boost, particularly a new energy agreement ensuring security of gas supplies.

More controversially, if Ms Merkel’s deal were to be acceptable to the Russians, the international community would need to recognise Crimea’s independence and its annexation by Russia, a move that some members of the United Nations might find difficult to stomach.

Sources close to the secret negotiations claim that the first part of the stabilisation plan requires Russia to withdraw its financial and military support for the various pro-separatist groups operating in eastern Ukraine. As part of any such agreement, the region would be allowed some devolved powers.

At the same time, the Ukrainian President would agree not to apply to join Nato. In return, President Putin would not seek to block or interfere with the Ukraine’s new trade relations with the European Union under a pact signed a few weeks ago.

Second, the Ukraine would be offered a new long-term agreement with Russia’s Gazprom, the giant gas supplier, for future gas supplies and pricing. At present, there is no gas deal in place; Ukraine’s gas supplies are running low and are likely to run out before this winter, which would spell economic and social ruin for the country.
[...]
A spokesman for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office said they had no knowledge of such negotiations taking place. However, the spokesman said he thought it highly unlikely that either the US or UK would agree to recognising Russian control over Crimea. There was no one available at the German embassy’s press office yesterday.

Reaching a solution to the ongoing dispute is pertinent for the Germans as Russia is their single biggest trading partner. Under Ms Merkel, the Russo-German axis has strengthened significantly and, until the plane shooting, her government had been staunchly against punitive sanctions for commercial but also diplomatic reasons.
[...]
However, Russia is still the EU’s third-biggest trading partner with cross-border trade of $460bn (£272bn) last year, and the latest sanctions being introduced by the EU towards Russian individuals and banks will hurt European countries more than any other – particularly Germany, but also the City of London.
... ... ...
RABEL222
 
  0  
Reply Wed 30 Jul, 2014 02:23 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Our great friend Germany is negotiating with Russia to stab us in the back? Walter, remind me again why it is so wrong for the U S to spy on our great friends who would never betray us.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Wed 30 Jul, 2014 02:35 pm
@RABEL222,
RABEL222 wrote:
Our great friend Germany is negotiating with Russia to stab us in the back?
You must have missed that Germany is negotiating from the very beginning onwards ... already, when the Maïdan revolt started.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 30 Jul, 2014 09:47 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
The Independent can reveal that the peace plan, being worked on by both Angela Merkel and Vladimir Putin, hinges on two main ambitions: stabilising the borders of Ukraine and providing the financially troubled country with a strong economic boost, particularly a new energy agreement ensuring security of gas supplies.

Sounds promising if it's true. But can we trust that something written in The Independent is accurate?


Quote:
More controversially, if Ms Merkel’s deal were to be acceptable to the Russians, the international community would need to recognise Crimea’s independence and its annexation by Russia, a move that some members of the United Nations might find difficult to stomach.

Those members should have thought about that when they were illegally carving Kosovo out of Serbia.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 30 Jul, 2014 09:51 pm
@Walter Hinteler,

RABEL222 wrote:
Our great friend Germany is negotiating with Russia to stab us in the back?

I've noted some questionable behavior from Germany in recent months. However, I do not see this deal (if The Independent has accurately described it) as stabbing us in the back.

In fact, if the details are as described in the article, I suspect that Mr. Obama was briefed on the proposal ahead of time. And I suspect he eagerly encouraged Germany to pursue the deal.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jul, 2014 10:54 pm
I sure would like to know how Oralboy gets all this top government stuff he spouts here. Is he perhaps Obama in drag?
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Jul, 2014 10:59 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I understand that she is making sure that Germany and its citizens get the oil and gas they need for their industry. And if she has to stick a knife in the back of the U S and the Ukrine to do so, well so be it.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2014 05:36 am
The latest, (eventually!)

Quote:
The rouble was down sharply against the dollar and the euro on Friday, falling more than 2% against both currencies.

The fall threatens to pile more pressure onto Russia's ailing economy, amid speculation that Moscow will have to take action to support the rouble.

On Wednesday, the country's central bank decided to limit its intervention in the financial markets.

Analysts said the sell-off looked like panic, and policymakers would have to act to prop up the currency.

A one-off intervention by the central bank to buy roubles looked likely, as did a rise in interest rates from the current 9.5%, economists said.

The rouble has lost more than a quarter of its value since the start of 2014.

Western sanctions over the conflict in Ukraine have played a major part in the currency's decline, by making Russia an unattractive place to keep funds.

The fall in the oil price is also important, as the export of crude is a major source of foreign currency for Russia.

The central bank has been using its own reserves in an attempt to contain the rouble's fall, but on Wednesday announced limits on that intervention.

"This is full-blown panic, with signs of a self-fulfilling currency crisis," Dmitry Polevoy, chief Russia economist at ING Bank in Moscow, said in a note. "At such times, the central bank should intervene. After all, if this isn't a risk to financial stability, then what is?"

Maxim Korovin, a forex analyst at VTB Capital, in Moscow, said the rouble's depreciation "clearly poses certain risks for financial stability".

Economists are awaiting a response from Moscow. Capital Economics said in a report that it expected the central bank to act "rather more quickly" than policymakers initially hoped.

The firm said interest rates may need to rise to as much as 12% to make it more attractive to investors to hold the currency.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29948333
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Fri 5 Dec, 2014 12:41 am
Quote:
Ukraine's forgotten security guarantee: The Budapest Memorandum
Twenty years ago, Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons in exchange for security guarantees from Russia and the West. Today Kyiv feels betrayed - and not merely by Moscow.

http://www.dw.de/ukraines-forgotten-security-guarantee-the-budapest-memorandum/a-18111097

These morons are finally waking up? Better late than never I suppose.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Fri 12 Dec, 2014 01:34 am
Quote:
"I think there is a consensus among all these parties [international lenders] that they will step up to the plate, on the condition of course that the Ukrainian government is performing," he said.
A year of revolution and war against pro-Russian separatists in the eastern Donbass region has pushed Ukraine's currency, the hryvnia, to record lows, and crippled an economy that was already near bankruptcy after decades of corruption and mismanagement.
IMF litany of austerity and privatization
Ukraine's parliament on Thursday approved the recently elected government's package of economic reforms, aimed at securing $27 billion (22 billion euros) in loans from Western backers, including the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank.
The reforms include overhauling the tax system, raising energy tariffs, and privatizing state firms. It also includes cuts to social benefits. Many Ukrainians face a winter of poverty, with prices rising sharply for imported goods, since the country's currency is expected to weaken further.
The main opposition party criticized the reforms, calling them an "austerity package," and saying it was too harsh.
"The programme was written under dictation from the IMF. It represents a path towards the impoverishment of our people," said Yury Boiko, head of the Opposition Bloc parliamentary group.
The reform package was in fact written with considerable input from Western advisors - in particular, from the new pro-Western Ukrainian government's US sponsors. Ukraine's new finance minister, investment banker Natalie Jaresko, is a former US State Department official who was granted Ukrainian citizenship only a few days ago.


http://www.dw.de/facing-default-ukraine-calls-for-foreign-funding/a-18124020

The West could not have devised a better plan to teach the Ukrainians that they made a mistake, and that they would be better off aligning with Russia/China/India.

Incredible incompetence is what we are looking at here.


0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 21 Jul, 2015 12:38 am
And impassioned and long plea from TOM DASCHLE to pull Ukraine fully into the Western orbit and away from Russia. Somehow in all those words Tom manages to completely ignore the two biggest problems with that idea.

1) That Ukraine is in almost every way broken down and decrepit, needing tens of billions of dollars of investment and complete rebuilding

2) Pushing Russia away, antagonizing them is going to be very costly and dangerous, and we do that over that hell hole way way over there next to Russia? WHY? Daschle says that " they deserve" it which may or may not be true but guess what, the Ukrainians dont belong to us. Where is our interest here?

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/07/ukraine-cant-survive-on-its-own-120383.html?ref=yfp#.Va3mbflViko
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 21 Jul, 2015 01:00 am
@hawkeye10,
I should add that Daschle has never impressed. Finding him writing a long winded weak argument for something that almost no one in America cares about is par for the course.

BUT, he is not so slow as to not know that these days you just gotta wrap what you are selling up in victim wrapper

Quote:
Finally, I was taken by something that I heard frequently. It is the victims — not the beneficiaries — of corruption who initiated Ukraine’s movement toward democracy and justice. For this reason, they told me, U.S. assistance should be conditional on progress toward a prescribed set of democratic goals, including the elimination of corruption, constitutional and political reforms and significant decentralization of governmental institutions.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/07/ukraine-cant-survive-on-its-own-120383.html#ixzz3gVWBYOOW

nor matter how strained the going gets.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 21 Jul, 2015 01:39 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
And impassioned and long plea from TOM DASCHLE to pull Ukraine fully into the Western orbit and away from Russia. Somehow in all those words Tom manages to completely ignore the two biggest problems with that idea.

1) That Ukraine is in almost every way broken down and decrepit, needing tens of billions of dollars of investment and complete rebuilding

I don't think he ignored that. Didn't he call for giving them that very aid?


hawkeye10 wrote:
2) Pushing Russia away, antagonizing them is going to be very costly and dangerous,

What will be costly and dangerous is not confronting Russia until after they've invaded the EU. Once things get that far, things will escalate quite rapidly to a large nuclear war.

We might be able to block Russia from invading the EU by making a large military buildup in eastern Europe and having a new cold war, but that will be pretty expensive (far better than letting things progress to a nuclear war however).

Keeping Russia bottled up with endless fighting in Ukraine will be quite cheap in comparison to the other options.

In addition to economic and military aid to Ukraine, we should also extend economic and military aid to Moldova. If Putin ever manages to plow through Odessa and into Moldova, it would be big a help if the Moldovans were capable of putting up a decent defense.


hawkeye10 wrote:
and we do that over that hell hole way way over there next to Russia? WHY?

One, because it is the right thing to do.

Two, because it is cheaper than having a huge military buildup and new cold war (and much cheaper than having a nuclear war with Russia after they invade the EU).


hawkeye10 wrote:
Daschle says that " they deserve" it which may or may not be true but guess what, the Ukrainians dont belong to us.

We are not the ones who are trying to possess the Ukrainians. Putin is the only one here who seeks to possess them.


hawkeye10 wrote:
Where is our interest here?

For some of us, we just like doing the right thing.

For others, we find bottling Russia up in Ukraine for the next 30 years to be a far cheaper option than a massive military buildup and entire new cold war (and far, far, far cheaper than waiting until Putin invades the EU and then fighting a nuclear war with him).
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Tue 21 Jul, 2015 01:49 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
I don't think he ignored that. Didn't he call for giving them that very aid?


He says "we should help them". He does not say just how much help is needed.

Quote:
(and much cheaper than having a nuclear war with Russia after they invade the EU).

No they will not, china would never allow it,

Quote:
For some of us, we just like doing the right thing.

the right thing would be to leave the situation alone, Ukraine is Russia's problem so let them deal with and pay for Ukraine, and never give the Ukrainians the notion that we will ever lift a finger for them. Then they go get the best deal they can from Putin, and we can all go back to more worthwhile pursuits.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jul, 2015 01:57 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
“Poroshenko says what the western politicians want to hear, and for some reason they believe him, but they don’t understand how impossible de-oligarchisation is in our system, how deep this post-Soviet legacy runs,” said Irina Vereshchuk, the former mayor of Rava-Ruska, a town in western Ukraine. “The oligarchs are like the blood and organs of the system, and we have nothing yet to transplant them with.”


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/21/ukraine-oligarchs-maidan-revolution

What else is going on in the world guys?

Ever heard of the Greek debt Crisis? Greek another country that does not follow the rules of good anything, that was in fact was let into the Euro even though it did not qualify.....and all the billions of Euros and time spent dealing with ******* Greece year after year.


And we are supposed to start doing this with Ukraine? When we have WAAY too many pressing problems to deal with already?

What ever drugs Daschle and the rest are on they should send some over. It must be good ****!


EDIT: these guys who dont know much of anything about Ukraine are begging us to do something really stupid in Ukraine. These guys are be getting some really good drugs.

They could both be true!
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 21 Jul, 2015 02:28 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
oralloy wrote:
(and much cheaper than having a nuclear war with Russia after they invade the EU).

No they will not, china would never allow it,

China lacks the power to prevent Russia from invading the EU.

And I doubt they'd bother even if they did have the power.


hawkeye10 wrote:
oralloy wrote:
For some of us, we just like doing the right thing.

the right thing would be to leave the situation alone,

Most moral systems suggest that you should intervene if it is in your power to prevent an atrocity.


hawkeye10 wrote:
Ukraine is Russia's problem

No, Ukraine is none of Russia's business.


hawkeye10 wrote:
so let them deal with and pay for Ukraine, and never give the Ukrainians the notion that we will ever lift a finger for them. Then they go get the best deal they can from Putin,

Even if we were to ignore morality and decide that we don't care about preventing atrocities, there is the fact that the course that you recommend would be much more expensive for the West.

If we fail to bottle Russia up in Ukraine and Moldova, the alternative is to have a massive military buildup and an entire new decades-long cold war standoff.


hawkeye10 wrote:
and we can all go back to more worthwhile pursuits.

Like spending tons more money on defense spending because we neglected the cheaper option of bottling Russia up in Ukraine and Moldova.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jul, 2015 02:49 am
@oralloy,
What "atrocity" are you imagining that Russia would have both the motivation and ability to carry out in Ukraine?

And if you think that either we or the EU is willing to go to war over Ukraine you are even more off your nuts than Daschle is.
 

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