31
   

COUP IN KYIV?

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 01:26 pm
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:
My question is; what exactly is an Autonomous Republic?
A state within the country - similar to province - with, well, a full government, parliament .... During the Soviet times, they had had a president as well.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 01:28 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
For a naval bas, you don't need just a harbour but the infrastructure as well ... especially, on the sea

Yes. But it is possible for other bases to be built.

It doesn't seem to me to be so important that Russia would want to drive Ukraine into the arms of NATO in order to keep it. And I don't see why the US cares about it at all.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 01:34 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
It doesn't seem to me to be so important that Russia would want to drive Ukraine into the arms of NATO in order to keep it. And I don't see why the US cares about it at all.
Since at least 2011, Putin is 're-ordering' the Russian sphere, geo-political influence etc completely new.

Without the Ukraine (and especially Crimea) that's impossible - from the Russian point of view.
The most recent developments crossed his plans - so he/they try to de-stabilise the Ukraine.
And that's what "the West" doesn't like, because ... they have similar ideas.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 01:35 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:
For a naval bas, you don't need just a harbour but the infrastructure as well ... especially, on the sea

Yes. But it is possible for other bases to be built.
Yes.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 01:36 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
It doesn't seem to me to be so important that Russia would want to drive Ukraine into the arms of NATO in order to keep it. And I don't see why the US cares about it at all.

NATO is not going to invade Ukraine, Russia will. Russia wins, they have the proximity and historical ties to the region to power through their will. Pro Western Ukrainian leaders and the West can snivel, but that is about all they can do.

It is important to remember that Ukraine in the last two years deeply pissed off the Chinese by taking a lot of money for grain and then not shipping it.....The Chinese are going to support Putin here for sure.
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 01:39 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
So, basically they are allowed to keep agreements with Russia even should Ukraine rescind the agreement to allow Russian access to its naval base?
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 01:40 pm
@Ragman,
Ragman wrote:
oralloy wrote:
US installed this new Ukrainian government with ...

What are you talking about?

US diplomats were recorded discussing who should or shouldn't be in the new Ukrainian government, a couple weeks before the coup took place.



It was noteworthy for the sexual aspirations that one of the diplomats expressed for the European Union (who apparently was not on board with the coup).
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 01:41 pm
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:

So, basically they are allowed to keep agreements with Russia even should Ukraine rescind the agreement to allow Russian access to its naval base?


Ukraine can no more cancel the contract then Cuba can cancel our contract for Guantanamo. Under international law new leaders can not rescind certain agreements that previous leaders made. Furthermore any attempt by Ukraine to do it anyways would make clearly legal Russia using military force to protect their interests in Ukraine.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 01:43 pm
@revelette2,
Well, there had been an agreement between Russia and the Ukraine about dividing the Black Sea Fleet and the bases. I can't tell you what exactly was said there.

As far as I understand it, the Russian bases in Crimea seem to have a similar status like e.g. US bases in Germany - we have nothing to say about it.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 01:47 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:


As far as I understand it, the Russian bases in Crimea seem to have a similar status like e.g. US bases in Germany - we have nothing to say about it.


US NATO forces are grounded by different types of agreements, which is why France was able to tell us "get the hell out right now!" and we had to do it.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 01:47 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
NATO is not going to invade Ukraine,

Who said anything about invading?

If Russia takes any territory from Ukraine, the remainder of Ukraine will join NATO.


hawkeye10 wrote:
Pro Western Ukrainian leaders and the West can snivel, but that is about all they can do.

Ukraine can join NATO.

The West can build a large airbase within spitting distance of Moscow.

Maybe an Army base filled with tanks and mechanized infantry would fit in nicely as well.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 01:50 pm
@hawkeye10,
I didn't mean "US NATO forces" - if I had, I'd written that.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 01:51 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
US diplomats were recorded discussing who should or shouldn't be in the new Ukrainian government, a couple weeks before the coup took place.
that would be so incredibly stupid I cant yet believe that America did that. Russia is not what is was but pissing them off unnecessarily hurts our long term interests in the East, and globally there are already plenty of powers who hate us, making more is dumb.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 01:54 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
(Reuters) - China's top newspaper criticized the West on Thursday for remaining locked in a "Cold War mentality" against Russia in the contest for influence over Ukraine, calling for the shackles of such outmoded thinking to be cast off to deal with the crisis.

The commentary published in the People's Daily, the flagship newspaper of the ruling Communist Party, was the strongest reaction yet in Beijing to the rift between the West and Russia that has been growing since the ouster of Moscow's ally Viktor Yanukovich as president following weeks of protests.

"The theories related to politics, economics and security during the Cold War period are still influencing many people on their concept of the world, and some Western people are still imbued with resentment towards Russia," the paper said.

It called on Western countries to "abandon their outdated thinking" and expand cooperation.

"Ridding the shackles of the Cold War mentality will reduce unnecessary confrontation, thereby allowing for a smoother transition in international relations."

The commentary was published under the pen name "Zhong Sheng", meaning "Voice of China", which is often used to give the paper's view on foreign policy issues.

China and Russia have close ties and see eye-to-eye on many international diplomatic issues, such as the crisis in Syria.

China has so far shown little public interest in participating in any financial aid for Ukraine, or getting involved diplomatically, in line with the low key approach it takes to many international crises.

China's foreign ministry has said it will not interfere in what it considers an internal affair and that it respects the Ukrainian people's decisions, adding that it would like to continue to develop "friendly cooperation" with the country.

East-West tensions over Ukraine have risen further since Russian President Vladimir Putin put 150,000 combat troops on high alert for war games near Ukraine, Moscow's boldest gesture since the ouster of Yanukovich.

The United States warned Russia on Wednesday it would be a "grave mistake" to intervene militarily in Ukraine and said it was considering $1 billion in U.S. loan guarantees and additional funding to help Kiev.

Yanukovich visited China in December in the hope of winning much-needed financial aid, but China did not say it would provide any loans. Yanukovich said deals signed with China may bring Ukraine about $8 billion in investment.

State news agency Xinhua said in December that Western powers should stop meddling in Ukraine's affairs and manipulating the "opinions of the people" about a trade pact with the European Union, just days after Yanukovich's visit to China.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/27/us-ukraine-crisis-china-idUSBREA1Q06J20140227
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 01:54 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
Ukraine can join NATO.
The West can build a large airbase within spitting distance of Moscow.

And the distance to Moscow ... see the map

Ukraine already is since a couple of years a NATO-partner country.
http://i1334.photobucket.com/albums/w641/Walter_Hinteler/a_zps4af4167d.jpg
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 01:58 pm
@hawkeye10,
Well, that just seems horrible, they have to provide the launching place for their own invasion.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 02:00 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
Ukraine can join NATO.

what would they use for fuel? Do you really think russia will be selling? Do you really think that Russia would continue to sell fuel to any Eastern European nation which voted to allow Ukraine into NATO, letting it transit through Ukraine? Sure they need the money, but fuel can move South, and China would buy it.

The EU can talk big, but the choices are rather limited. Allowing Ukraine into NATO would carry very big costs at a time when the EU is already neck deep in debt at other **** caused by its own mismanagement. The EU does not have the luxury of ******* around with Putin right now, and Putin knows it. Me thinks that Europeans might have gotten snookered into following an incompetent Obama in an unnecessary and potentially ruinous Ukrainian games.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 02:04 pm
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:

Well, that just seems horrible, they have to provide the launching place for their own invasion.
(We had no influence at all when the USA built the new spying centre in Wiesbaden.)
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 02:06 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Since at least 2011, Putin is 're-ordering' the Russian sphere, geo-political influence etc completely new.

Without the Ukraine (and especially Crimea) that's impossible - from the Russian point of view.
The most recent developments crossed his plans - so he/they try to de-stabilise the Ukraine.
And that's what "the West" doesn't like, because ... they have similar ideas.

I don't entirely understand why the West is trying to take this base from Russia, but at the moment I dissent from Western policy.

I don't think we gain anything from depriving Russia of this base (should we even succeed in doing so). And I think we are creating unnecessary strife for the Ukrainians by setting them at odds with Russia.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 02:07 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
What's that got to do with it? Did we take it over Wiesbaden?
 

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