31
   

COUP IN KYIV?

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 02:10 pm
@revelette2,
No. But it is the same legal status.
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 02:11 pm
When did we (the west)take over the base? What proof is there of it?
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 02:13 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
And the distance to Moscow ... see the map

Yes. NATO bases in north-central Ukraine would make Moscow untenable as Russia's capital. We'd be able to target the city with short-range weapons.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 02:13 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Well, then if we in fact didn't have permission (it might have been secret) from you all's government we were in the wrong. That don't make what Russia is doing right.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 02:13 pm
Opinion: Crimea is Putin's bargaining chip

Russian President Vladimir Putin's strategy for the Ukrainian conflict is clear. As a result, Ukraine's new government and the West are in a dangerous jam, writes DW's Ingo Mannteufel.

Quote:
Dilemma for the West
The initial statements issued by the US and the EU show their outrage at the developments in Crimea. But harsh words will have little impact. Putin is indifferent to what the West says or thinks about him. In addition to that, he constantly highlights the alleged demands of the ethnic Russian population of Crimea, whose safety he claims to want to ensure.
As a result, the West finds itself in an uncomfortable predicament. It could retaliate with rigorous sanctions against Russia (trade restrictions, travel restrictions, account closures, eviction from the G8), which could lead to a new Cold War with negative consequences for the West's energy supply and huge investments into helping maintain the new "frontier state of Ukraine." It's hard to imagine that the residents of western democracies would support this kind of solution.
Or the West can grit its teeth for some time and silently accept Moscow's new role in Crimea, coercing the politicians in Kyiv into negotiating with Russia, which they are reluctant to do. In this way, Putin would - in a brutal way and in breach of international law - attain what the anti-Yanukovych opposition and western politicians didn't want to grant him in recent months: a strong voice in the negotiations on Ukraine's political and economic future


http://www.dw.de/opinion-crimea-is-putins-bargaining-chip/a-17467330

As I was saying......
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 02:20 pm
@hawkeye10,
Well, this is one time I hope we and the west don't give in to Putin brutal tactics and let the chips fall where they may.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 02:25 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
what would they use for fuel? Do you really think russia will be selling? Do you really think that Russia would continue to sell fuel to any Eastern European nation which voted to allow Ukraine into NATO, letting it transit through Ukraine? Sure they need the money, but fuel can move South, and China would buy it.

Europe can always start hydraulic fracturing like we're doing in the US.

As for oil, Russia failed to conquer Georgia in 2008, and the pipelines there are still flowing. There are some nice oilfields in Kazakhstan that we can tap once the Azeri oil runs out. Presumably by then Georgia will be in NATO and there will be US soldiers there to protect them from a second invasion.


hawkeye10 wrote:
Me thinks that Europeans might have gotten snookered into following an incompetent Obama in an unnecessary and potentially ruinous Ukrainian games.

Based on our diplomat's comment about the EU, I don't think they were really in agreement with our Ukrainian policy. It looks like we just went ahead and did it anyway despite their objections.

What Obama thinks he's achieving in Ukraine, that I couldn't tell you.
Foofie
 
  0  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 02:28 pm
Is there any old adage, when one wall goes down, another wall goes up?
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 02:29 pm
@oralloy,
I don't know I must have missed any news stories where Obama is at the bottom of all this. If the end of the world comes I suppose it will be Obama's fault.
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 02:37 pm
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:

Well, this is one time I hope we and the west don't give in to Putin brutal tactics and let the chips fall where they may.


We have to treat this matter with the utmost sensitivity. We share MAD with Russia. We each could destroy the other at will. I hope this is kept as the number one consideration in this matter.

The Eastern Ukraine is in the Russian sphere of influence, which tells me that we should step away from the matter. Let Europe handle this conflict.

Remember the Cuban missile crisis, in which we were a hair away from losing about 90 million Americans.
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 02:46 pm
@Advocate,
You sound rational compared to me, got carried away for a minute.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 02:47 pm
@hawkeye10,
Ukraine expert: "Crimea secession likely"
Quote:
The main problem is that the Russian population in Russia as well as the Russian population on the Crimean peninsula has been agitated against the protesters in Maidan Square by Russian state television over the last few months. On state television, the events have been portrayed as a fascist overthrow orchestrated by the West. That's why fears are arising now, in Russia as well as in Crimea.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 02:48 pm
Quote:
The widespread protests in Ukraine are a replay of the 2004 “Orange Revolution” that ousted Yanukovich and brought Victor Yushenko to power. The Orange Revolution was also about turning Ukraine west to Europe, but Yushenko’s rule was a disaster, and, with Ukraine in shambles, the European Union (EU) didn’t want to adopt a nearly-bankrupt state.

http://my.telegraph.co.uk/retsos_nikos/nikos_retsos/16011766/tug-of-war-between-west-and-russia-over-ukraine-stiffens/

and given that today the EU is in even less of a position then it was then to adopt a bankrupt and deeply broken Ukraine we will see a replay of the EU letting the Ukrainian mess go....

One has to wonder about the quality of the Ukrainian brain trust that somehow got to the conclusion that they could piss off Putin and then the West would ride to the rescue....it ain't going to happen.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 02:56 pm
Quote:
There's a threat today to the lives and safety of our fellow citizens, of Russian speakers, of ethnic Russians," Valentina Matvienko, speaker of the upper house of parliament, told reporters after the vote. "We can't remain indifferent."

Asked about possible western counter-intervention, she said there was no ground for it. "With all due respect to the United States, where is the U.S. located and where is Russia?

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303801304579412380376851854?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702303801304579412380376851854.html

Not to put too fine a point on it....
0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  2  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 03:00 pm
Dag just posted this...she's a riot Alice.
https://scontent-b-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/t1/1530453_656161661094247_135439907_n.jpg
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 03:03 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
did you notice that the Chinese are supporting Russia's interpretation of events?
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 03:08 pm
I would like to see the members of the Republicans and the Tea Party to fly to East Ukraine and stand up for the revolution.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 03:20 pm
Quote:

Ukraine has asked NATO to look at all ways to protect its territorial integrity. Foreign Minister Sergei Deshchiritsya said he had held talks with officials from the United States and the European Union and then asked NATO for help after what Ukraine’s prime minister described as Russian aggression.
A request had been made to NATO to “look at using all possibilities for protecting the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine, the Ukrainian people and nuclear facilities on Ukrainian territory,” he said.

Reuters
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 03:25 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
A $15 billion loan offer from Russia, extended in November after Yanukovych dropped the EU deal, is on hold.
Russia also promised to slash natural gas prices. However, Russian energy giant Gazprom said Saturday that Ukraine is $1.55 billion in arrears on payments for natural gas deliveries, which may force the firm to cancel the discount it agreed to last year, Russian state-run RIA Novosti news agency said.
Gazprom spokesman Sergei Kupriyanov said that Russia has issued a $3 billion line of credit to Ukraine to help it cover its gas debts -- but that payment obligations must be respected.


http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/europe/ukraine-politics/

PLease WEST, come save us from that mean man Putin, YOU PROMISED! Drunk
Lordyaswas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 05:48 pm
@hawkeye10,
Hawkeye, why do you have to be a prat about all this?
What exactly are you mocking?

I don't get your mentality at all, sometimes.

Not wishing to fuel the fun you're having here, I'll just point out a few things which might shed some light regarding one of Putin's interests in Ukraine, apart from his desire to be seen to protect the ethnic russians and his strategic military stuff down in Crimea.

There is one effing great gas pipeline that goes right through Ukraine, from Russia to the Eu. This gas being sent to the EU is worth many BILLIONS of dollars to Russia each year. To lose this revenue would be devastating to Russia.

The pipeline on Ukranian soil is totally owned by Ukraine. Every inch of it.

If they wished, they could turn off the gas or sabotage that pipeline anywhere along its entire length, if Russia were to get nasty.

Just saying.

 

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