31
   

COUP IN KYIV?

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 05:31 am
Harriet Salem, the Guardian's correspondent in Simferopol in Crimea (who is currently in a local McDonalds using free wifi), reports at 11.23am GMT:
Quote:
I have just travelled from Sevastopol to Simferopol. There was little sign of tension. Mostly people are just going about their business. There were blockades outside of Sevastopol manned by armed civilians with motorbikes parked nearby but there was no problem passing through.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 05:35 am
@Walter Hinteler,
who is currently in a local McDonalds using free wifi)

-------
Oh the irony!
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 05:50 am
Jonathan Marcus' take on the likelihood of a Russian invasion.

Quote:
So far, it looks much like the preliminaries to the Russian assault on Georgia back in 2008.

Then, of course, the Georgian military did the Russians the favour of moving first into the separatist enclave of South Ossetia sparking a furious Russian response.

But comparisons can be misleading.

Georgia was a small country that had deeply irritated Moscow and one that could do little to respond against Russia's overwhelming military might.

Many experts believe a similar full-scale Russian intervention in Ukraine is unlikely.

Given the size of Ukraine and the divisions within its population, it would simply saddle Russia with involvement in what might rapidly become a bitter civil war.

Russian pressure at the moment serves a different goal.

Ukraine is heading towards bankruptcy. It needs outside funding. Moscow knows that Western financial institutions must play some kind of role.

Its concern is to underline in as clear terms as possible that any future Ukrainian government should tilt as much towards Moscow as it does to the EU.

Russia's bottom line is that Kiev should resist any temptation to draw towards Nato.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26388057
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 05:56 am
@izzythepush,
Izzy's quote: Russia's bottom line is that Kiev should resist any temptation to draw towards Nato.
---------
Good bottom line. It ain't Russia that is coming off two recent massive sets of crimes against humanity.

Dare I mention it's the NATO boys.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 06:34 am
According to various Russian and Ukrainian reports, the crisis is spreading from Crimea to other parts of the Ukraine. There are reports that pro-Russian demonstrators in Donestsk and Kharkiv have attempted to take parliament buildings.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 06:57 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Reuters and other agencies reporting
Quote:
UKRAINE’S ACTING PRESIDENT SIGNS DECREE RULING THAT APPOINTMENT OF PRO-RUSSIA PREMIER IN CRIMEA IS ILLEGAL


And Crimean police have rejected the claim made in Russia Today that troops sent by Kiev tried to capture the interior ministry in Semferopol.

0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 07:44 am
I heard a report on the CBC News while i was shaving to the effect that there are now 6000 Russian troops in the Crimean, that there are now attack helicopters there, that the air space over the peninsula has been shut down, and that the Russians have taken over an air base there. The Prime Minister of the Autonomous Region of the Crimean has reportedly asked Putin to guarantee their sovereignty, and the Ukraine's acting president has declared that Ukrainian servicemen are prepared to deal with any insurrection, but are avoiding any causes of confrontation. It appears the the Crimean PM is playing brinkmanship with the Ukrainian government. After shaving, i shoered and got dressed, so i've not yet had time to hunt up news about these developments.
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 08:14 am
@izzythepush,

Quote:
Far from taking Russia's side, China seems to be keeping the whole situation at arms length.


Hmm, they must not be sure Russia is going to prevail and is taking a wait and see approach? Or as you all probably say, "hedging their bets?"
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 08:17 am
CBC News now reports that Putin will ask the Russian parliament for authority to send troops in the Crimean, and said that they had an unconfirmed report that the speaker of the Russian parliament (or whatever the equivalent office is) has sent n address to Putin to ask that he take steps to protect ethnic Russians in the Ukraine.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 08:19 am
CBC News' The World:

Ukraine crisis: Russian troops increase Crimea tensions
Ukrainian defence chief says 6,000 Russian troops deployed
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 08:20 am
@Setanta,
Putin (via reuters):

Quote:
“In connection with the extraordinary situation in Ukraine, the threat to the lives of citizens of the Russian Federation, our compatriots, and the personnel of the armed forces of the Russian Federation on Ukrainian territory (in the Autonomous Republic of Crimea) ... I submit a proposal on using the armed forces of the Russian Federation on the territory of Ukraine until the normalisation of the socio-political situation in the that country.”
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 08:21 am
Interesting article by Guardian's Defence Correspondent.

Quote:
Although Ukraine has a military force capable of making Russia think twice about invasion, it has a relatively light presence in the Crimea. Russia, by contrast, has for historical reasons a huge presence on the peninsula, with its Black Sea fleet based in Sevastopol.

"It is a nightmare for everyone," said Igor Sutyagin, a Russian military expert. "The entry of Russian troops would be a deep humiliation for Ukraine … It would be a second Chechnya."

Russia has an overall military force of about 845,000 troops against Ukraine's 130,000. Russia's military spending is also vastly greater than Ukraine's, $40.7bn last year compared with $1.4bn. But the Ukrainian forces are still formidable, better-trained, engaged over the last decade in international peacekeeping missions and established close contacts with western counterparts.

Brigadier Ben Barry, a specialist on land warfare at the International Institute for Strategic Studies, said: "If there was ever military confrontation, the question is how much the morale and fighting-power of the Ukrainian forces would be boosted by fighting for their country."

The small armed forces surrounding the two Crimea airports had no markings on their uniforms to identify them. Moscow denied responsibility but Kiev claimed the armed group at the Belbek airport, which is used by the Ukrainian air force and is close to Sevastopol, was made up of Russian marines.

Barry said that what was striking about the forces at the airport is they do not look like a newly formed militia. "This is not a ragtag force. When you see a new militia, they will have a jumble-sale look. This lot are uniformly dressed and equipped and seem competent and efficient, " he said.

Russia has put its combat planes on alert and has begun new training exercises, moves that prompted speculation of an impending invasion similar to the one into Georgia in 2008.

But all-out invasion of Ukraine appears unlikely at present given that even if Russia was to win, it would face years of costly and bloody insurrection. Taking over just Crimea appears, at least initially, to be less risky given that more than half the population is ethnic Russian. As a peninsula, Crimea would be theoretically easy to defend.

Ukraine has only a single coastal defence unit in the Crimea, about 3,500-strong, with artillery but no tanks.

But a Russian takeover of the Crimea could turn out to be disastrous in the long run. The Kremlin would be underestimating the impact of the sizeable population of Tartars who were forcibly deported from the Crimea by Stalin in 1944 and not allowed to return until the beginning of Perestroika in the 1980s.

Sutyagin, who is at the London-based Royal United Services Institute, said: "The Tartars are very anti-Russian. They will do anything not to be under the Russians. They will be determined to fight for Ukraine. It would be a second Chechnya. There are a lot of mountains in Crimea, just as in Chechnya."

Many of the soldiers fighting in the Ukrainian army are ethnic Russians but it would be a mistake to assume they might desert or turn on their officers rather than take on Russian forces. Sutyagin said loyalty to the idea of an independent Ukrainian state would top their ethnicity.

"The entry of Russian troops would be a deep humiliation for Ukraine. Ukrainians do not want to be occupied. It is a mistake by Russian politicians who think ethnic Russians are Russian," Sutyagin said.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/28/ukraine-military-russia-crimea
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 08:23 am
So, I am curious, what do you all want to happen in this situation? Do you want Russia to invade and take over Ukraine? What right does Russia have to do it?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 08:23 am
@revelette2,
Are you addressing me? I'd like everyone to take a step back, sit down and hammer out a compromise. War would be disastrous for both sides.

Btw, I think you maybe confusing Crimea with all of Ukraine.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 08:26 am
The latest.

Quote:
Russia's President Vladimir Putin has asked his upper house of parliament to approve the deployment of Russian troops in Ukraine, the Kremlin says.

It follows discussions by the lower and upper house on ways to "stabilise" the situation in Ukraine's Crimea region, where many ethnic Russians live.

Earlier, the Ukrainian defence minister said Moscow had already deployed some 6,000 extra troops to Crimea.

Kiev has accused Moscow of deliberately trying to provoke a confrontation.

President Putin submitted the request "in connection with the extraordinary situation in Ukraine and the threat to the lives of Russian citizens", the Kremlin said.

He asked the upper house - which constitutionally must approve such a motion - for Russian armed forces to be used "until the normalisation of the political situation in that country".

Crimea is largely Russian-speaking and is home to Russia's Black Sea Fleet.

Earlier, the newly-elected pro-Moscow leader of Crimea appealed to Mr Putin for help to ensure peace on the peninsula - a request that would "not leave unnoticed" the Kremlin said at the time.

It follows days of military activity in Crimea during which unidentified, but believed to be pro-Russian, armed men moved in to take over the regional parliament, state television and telecommunications hubs.

Witnesses also spoke of seeing a build up of Russian armoured vehicles and troops in the area.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26400035
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 08:26 am
@izzythepush,
Anyone, if they want to answer.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 08:27 am
Personally, i think it would be best if the Russians stayed out. I have no illusions, however, that they will.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 08:31 am
@izzythepush,
I agree.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 08:32 am
Summary (from the Guardian's blog)

Quote:
- Putin ask for right to use armed forces in Ukraine.
- Ukrainians accuse Russia of refusing dialogue.
- European foreign ministers urge Russia to respect sovereignty of Ukraine and help reduce tension.
- Pro-Russian demonstrations take place in Kharkiv, Donetsk, Odessa and other towns.
- Reports of Russian troops attempting to take Ukrainian bases in Crimea.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 1 Mar, 2014 08:38 am
Well, I hope they don't in any case. But if not, they sure are putting a lot of effort into saber rattling.
 

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