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Do we Have ANY Reason To Believe That Obama Will Alter NSA Practices?

 
 
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 09:57 pm
I am shocked at the number of commentators who claim that todays speech indicates that practices at NSA will be changed in a meaningful way. This looks to be the speech you give when you want to pacify the outrage but do nothing, and lets be clear the majority of the outrage has come from our overseas friends, not from Americans. I dont think that this does anything to alter the opinion that the American government is barbaric and should not have access to global data, that American firms should not be employed. I further predict that failure of the American people and the Supreme Court to put an end to this abuse will reflect poorly upon Americans.
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 10:12 pm
@hawkeye10,
Our wonderful president did not in fact address most of the issues his own panel brought up such as trying to get back doors build into encrypted softwares/hardwares.

Still in fact spying on every damn US citizen that made a phone call in the nation with the only safe guard being our "trust" that they will not search that data base unless they get a court order. Oh of course if there is a time factor no court order needed either.

Hell maybe the NSA bureaucrats are holding something over his head like Hoover did with President Kennedy so he could not come down on them even if he would wish to do so.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 10:23 pm
@BillRM,
One thing that struck me was the assertion that some sort of devils advocate will be allowed to challenge the government in FISA Court, but he is completely vague about who this will be and how it will work. The way I figure if he is not willing to outline how this group can be expected to have the power to actually challenge the government it surely will not.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 10:33 pm
@hawkeye10,
Hawkeye they could not even back up the claims that the massive phone data base had been of any use at all as far as stopping terrorist attacks.

As I had said is Obama a free agent or not as after all with far less resources no President dared to fired Hoover or to interfere too must with the running of the FBI over the Hoover decades.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 11:59 pm
@BillRM,
"trust us" was the message, to include that this data capture is useful.

HELL NO!
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Sat 18 Jan, 2014 12:00 am
The government should require a judge's okay to take the data, not merely to access it, and there should be no secret courts. The people responsible for this program should be fired and prohibited from working in civil service again.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jan, 2014 01:41 am
@Brandon9000,
not just secret courts but secret laws as well. This is outrageous, this is abuse of the citizens at the hands of our government. Where was the Obama defense of this abuse today? so far as I can tell he ignored it.
Brandon9000
 
  0  
Reply Sat 18 Jan, 2014 01:47 am
@hawkeye10,
Didn't he swear an oath to defend the Constitution from domestic enemies?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jan, 2014 01:53 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:

Didn't he swear an oath to defend the Constitution from domestic enemies?

Who or what will hold him to that? Clearly not his conscience.
0 Replies
 
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jan, 2014 08:54 am
I think some changes will be made but not a whole lot. I doubt very much would be changed under any sitting US president in the future either. In the end, though the American people gripe about it, I suspect not enough want to risk too much changes. I have to confess the changes I want have to do with who has access (clearances) to this information and issues of that nature. I also don't understand why we would have to spy on other governments and United Nations meetings. I think that is more shameful than this spying on regular people.
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jan, 2014 09:13 am
The following is from a liberal website, but they have been critical about NSA and the administration all along. It is a pretty good article on what he addressed and what he ignored.


Quote:
President Obama scaled back the National Security Agency’s ability to collect and store telephone data, but did not embrace many of the recommendations experts have proposed to reform the NSA.

In a heavily-anticipated speech Friday, Obama said intelligence agencies can still collect millions of Americans phone records but will instead have to turn them over to a third party and get a judge’s approval before accessing them.

“When you cut through the noise, what’s really at stake is how we remain true to who we are in a world that is remaking itself at dizzying speed,” Obama said.

The NSA, however, will hold onto the records for now until the U.S. Department of Justice, Congress and national security officials agree on who will store the phone data. Starting immediately, the agency must get a secret court’s approval before tapping into the database. They must also start limiting their inquiries into American citizens who are “two hops” away from suspected terrorists, rather than three.

The presidential policy directive released Friday ahead of the speech specified that signals intelligence collection could not occur “for the purpose of suppressing or burdening criticism or dissent, or for disadvantaging persons based on their ethnicity, race, gender, sexual orientation, or religion.” The administration will also separately study privacy issues in big data collection in both the public and private sector, perhaps suggesting more sweeping reforms to come.

In its recommendations, the president’s NSA review board suggested phone companies or an independent, private third party keep the bulk phone data to reduce the risk of government abuse. Then the NSA and other intelligence agencies could only retrieve it after getting a court order under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

Even though it hasn’t been decided who will house the phone data, Obama’s decision aligns with a bill introduced Tuesday by Rep. Adam Schiff (D-CA) that mandates the government ask phone companies for records on a case-by-case basis. But the president’s reforms fall short of the pending Senate bill that seeks to abolish phone metadata collection altogether.

Obama addressed very few of the 46 recommendations drafted by his hand-picked review group.

But among the panel’s recommendations, Obama said there should be a public advocacy panel to monitor government programs that may compromise civil liberties. Obama asked Congress to assemble a panel of privacy experts that will weigh in on only “significant and novel cases” that could have broad privacy implications, a senior Obama Administration official said during a news conference call Friday. Because the FISA court also handles individual criminal cases, the privacy and civil liberties panel will only take part in cases “where the court is rendering a judgment that affects a broader privacy equity,” the official said.

However, Obama ducked some changes offered by the NSA panel. For example, no mention was made of the panel’s recommendation to close loopholes that allow government backdoor spying through U.S.-based tech companies, or reforming whistleblower protections.


source
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jan, 2014 09:36 am
@revelette2,
revelette2 wrote:

...I also don't understand why we would have to spy on other governments and United Nations meetings. I think that is more shameful than this spying on regular people.

It seems to me that spying on citizens without probably cause is about as shameful as it gets. It is exactly opposite to the proper role of government.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 18 Jan, 2014 10:17 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
I am shocked at the number of commentators who claim that todays speech indicates that practices at NSA will be changed in a meaningful way.

In general, the strengthening of checks and balances is good.

Putting all the phone metadata in the hands of a private corporation, though, has some pretty serious downsides to it.


hawkeye10 wrote:
This looks to be the speech you give when you want to pacify the outrage but do nothing, and lets be clear the majority of the outrage has come from our overseas friends, not from Americans.

I hesitate to call these people our friends.


hawkeye10 wrote:
I dont think that this does anything to alter the opinion that the American government is barbaric and should not have access to global data,

If our pretend friends want to take military action to prevent us from seizing the data, I am confident in our ability to win that war.


hawkeye10 wrote:
that American firms should not be employed.

We should definitely look to push punitive retaliatory sanctions through the WTO.


hawkeye10 wrote:
I further predict that failure of the American people and the Supreme Court to put an end to this abuse will reflect poorly upon Americans.

There is no abuse.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 18 Jan, 2014 10:18 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:
The government should require a judge's okay to take the data, not merely to access it,

That won't work. If the data is not taken to begin with, it will not be there to access later when they need to look at it.


Brandon9000 wrote:
and there should be no secret courts.

If we are going to have a court oversee our most sensitive secrets, that court has to operate in secrecy.

The only alternative is to allow our spy agencies to operate with no court oversight at all.


Brandon9000 wrote:
The people responsible for this program should be fired and prohibited from working in civil service again.

We aren't going to punish our heroes for defending us from the bad guys.
Brandon9000
 
  4  
Reply Sat 18 Jan, 2014 10:27 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
The government should require a judge's okay to take the data, not merely to access it,

That won't work. If the data is not taken to begin with, it will not be there to access later when they need to look at it.


Brandon9000 wrote:
and there should be no secret courts.

If we are going to have a court oversee our most sensitive secrets, that court has to operate in secrecy.

The only alternative is to allow our spy agencies to operate with no court oversight at all.


Brandon9000 wrote:
The people responsible for this program should be fired and prohibited from working in civil service again.

We aren't going to punish our heroes for defending us from the bad guys.

Secret courts are antithetical to freedom. Let them use the normal court system or else find another way altogether.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Benjamin Franklin
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 18 Jan, 2014 10:43 am
@revelette2,
Quote:
In a heavily-anticipated speech Friday, Obama said intelligence agencies can still collect millions of Americans phone records but will instead have to turn them over to a third party and get a judge’s approval before accessing them.

The idea of setting up a special private corporation to hold all the phone records seems likely to have all sorts of unintended consequences.

Employees of this new corporation will not have the same degree of oversight that employees of the NSA are subject to, and will be able to carry out their own unauthorized and illicit spying on a daily basis.

The new corporation will be a major target for hackers. We should expect the criminal underworld to regularly gain access to all the phone metadata information and use it to further their efforts at identity theft.

And the biggest unintended consequence of all will be: Once the government starts getting these records by way of court-ordered subpoena, every divorce lawyer in the nation is going to start getting data from this archive.


Quote:
Even though it hasn’t been decided who will house the phone data, Obama’s decision aligns with a bill introduced Tuesday by Rep. Adam Schiff (D-CA) that mandates the government ask phone companies for records on a case-by-case basis.

That is not likely to work very well. The government could indeed start paying phone companies to keep these records for years, and in an easily searchable format. But I don't know that the terrorists are going to cooperate and start placing all their calls using the same phone company.

Assembling a cohesive picture of a web of phone activity by "repeatedly making requests to a phone company over and over as new branches of that web pop up from the data provided by a different phone company" is not only going to be tedious, it also holds the risk that something critical will be accidentally missed.

In order to work really well, everything is going to need to be in one unified database.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 18 Jan, 2014 10:58 am
@Brandon9000,
Brandon9000 wrote:
Secret courts are antithetical to freedom. Let them use the normal court system or else find another way altogether.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Benjamin Franklin

The only other way is no court oversight at all.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jan, 2014 11:30 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
The only other way is no court oversight at all.


Nonsense for most of our history we did not have secret courts and if we could have deal with Germany and Japan and the USSR without secret courts we can surely deal with a few middle east terrorists without secret courts.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 18 Jan, 2014 12:00 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:
Nonsense for most of our history we did not have secret courts and if we could have deal with Germany and Japan and the USSR without secret courts we can surely deal with a few middle east terrorists without secret courts.

Any time in our history when we did not have a secret court oversee our spy agencies, our spy agencies operated without any court oversight at all.

We can return to having no court oversight of our spy agencies if you like. If nothing else, that would nip this "need a court order for phone metadata" thing in the bud.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jan, 2014 12:40 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Brandon9000 wrote:
Secret courts are antithetical to freedom. Let them use the normal court system or else find another way altogether.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Benjamin Franklin

The only other way is no court oversight at all.

Law enforcement and intelligence agents have been around for a long time, long before electronic snooping was possible. They will just have to find some way to pursue criminals other than indiscriminately snooping on the people for whom they work. Personally, I don't want the narrowest possible interpretation of the Bill of Rights.
 

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