The pressure to 'be a man'.

The pressure to 'be a man' is the strongest in the world of dating.

A man is expected to take initiative in every stage of a dating relationship. Men who don't take initiative don't have a dating life. It is rare that a woman will initiate any type of relationship.

Every man also knows that in spite of the fact that every woman says she hates machismo, that the men who behave with the most machismo have the most success attracting women. Those of us who can't pull off this macho thing have trouble getting any sort of interest from most women.

You are telling us that we shouldn't behave a certain way, and then rewarding those of us who don't listen with sex.

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@maxdancona,

I can't really relate to that post as I haven't really found that to be the case.
Most of the romantic scenarios I've ended up in have been mutually decided upon, where we seem to be getting along fine and then someone says 'shall we do this' and the other one says 'yes'. Or we get closer together gradually or something.

What you are saying is interesting though.

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@The Pentacle Queen,

That isn't my experience (as a man). There is always someone who initiates a relationship, and the vast majority of times it is the man who pursues a relationship.

I believe that other men here can back me up here. If a man doesn't actively pursue relationships, they don't happen. I suppose a woman might wait until there is someone she is "getting along fine" with, without understanding the effort it takes for a man to get to that point. I don't believe that there has ever been a man who has described a relationship as "we got closer together gradually or something".

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@maxdancona,

maxdancona wrote:

That isn't my experience (as a man). There is always someone who initiates a relationship, and the vast majority of times it is the man who pursues a relationship.

I believe that other men here can back me up here. If a man doesn't actively pursue relationships, they don't happen. I suppose a woman might wait until there is someone she is "getting along fine" with, without understanding the effort it takes for a man to get to that point.

Max...you are correct here. There are exceptions to this rule...but few and far between.

And much as it may be uncomfortable for some to accept, your comment in your earlier post is much closer to the truth than most want to acknowledge. (I'm not sure I would have used "every man", but it captures the spirit of things...and is a lesson almost every guy has to learn in order to make the grade with many women.)

Every man also knows that in spite of the fact that every woman says she hates machismo, that the men who behave with the most machismo have the most success attracting women. Those of us who can't pull off this macho thing have trouble getting any sort of interest from most women.

You are telling us that we shouldn't behave a certain way, and then rewarding those of us who don't listen with sex.

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@The Pentacle Queen,

Quote:

I've long disliked the terms 'man up' and 'grow some balls', simply because I don't feel that acting with agency/boldness/deftness is a primarily masculine trait.

Boldness is a masculine trait, but the 'grow some balls' can, but is rarely used to refer to 'boldness', but rather, to standing up for yourself. Man up (which isn't used much) I would say refers to 'find your courage' - which may equate to boldness.

Quote:

I've never known what the pressure is like to have to 'man up', even if I have felt pressure to be tough/a leader etc. in certain situations.

Pressure from? The reason I ask that is - there are two different kinds of pressures that come from either your male compatriots, or women. For those that look, the male pressure is more overt, while the female pressure is less overt (usually) but more pervasive.

Quote:

So I wanted to ask men for their experiences: have there been times in your life where the pressure to 'be a man' has made you act in a way that was different to how you would have maybe otherwise acted? What was that like?

You write this like 'made you be other than who you are'.

Please excuse me for rephrasing and asking questions - but I feel that your paradigm isn't open to the other side of the coin. You seem to find social pressure in this regard to be purely a bad thing.

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Quote:

Max said: I believe that other men here can back me up here. If a man doesn't actively pursue relationships, they don't happen

Right, and chatup lines are everything.
For example if a guy says to a girl "Fancy a stroll on the park?" the chances are she'll say "No"
But if he says "You've got a pretty neck, shall we stroll down the jeweller's and get you fixed up with a diamond necklace?" the chances are excellent that she'll say "YES!"

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@vikorr,

No, I don't really, but I think it's one-dimensional and reductive to consider boldness a purely masculine trait, purely because I don't really fit into it. I basically do what I like, which necessarily includes standing up for myself.

Quote:

You write this like 'made you be other than who you are'.

Some people experience a disjunction...

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@The Pentacle Queen,

I have used the expression "man up" several times during the last few days...and each time I have felt a pang of guilt, because of what I said in this thread, PQ.

I couldn't remember which thread it was...but when I saw this post, it came back that it was yours.

Sorry I did...but it was (in my warped opinion) necessary. I promise that whenever I feel it necessary to use it, it is not ever intended as an insult of any sort toward women.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

I have used the expression "man up" several times during the last few days...and each time I have felt a pang of guilt, because of what I said in this thread, PQ.

I couldn't remember which thread it was...but when I saw this post, it came back that it was yours.

Sorry I did...but it was (in my warped opinion) necessary. I promise that whenever I feel it necessary to use it, it is not ever intended as an insult of any sort toward women.

Aw, thanks Frank, that's really great.
Yeah, I mean it's hard to slip habits that are ingrained in us so hard.
I sometimes accidentally call trans people by the wrong pronoun and actually I still use the word 'spaz' and 'retard' too much even though I do work with disabled children sometimes, so I guess trying is the main thing.

How are you anyway?

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@The Pentacle Queen,

Doing real good, PQ...although I am really feeling the effects of getting old. (Never thought it would happen!) Wink

Waiting for the weather to change in New Jersey so I can get out on the golf course and get back into summer shape!

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@Frank Apisa,

That's good to hear! I had no idea golf keeps people in shape, how ignorant of me.

Ouch. I thought that was happening to me a bit a couple of months ago but it turned out I was anemic.

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@The Pentacle Queen,

Quote:

No, I don't really, but I think it's one-dimensional and reductive to consider boldness a purely masculine trait, purely because I don't really fit into it. I basically do what I like, which necessarily includes standing up for myself.

Traits are a generic reflection of evolution. Like all generics, they don't always hold true.

There's nothing wrong with feminine boldness (you can be bold and still be quite feminine), just as there is nothing wrong with masculine empathy and nurturing (you can be such and still be masculine).

It doesn't stop boldness from being a masculine trait.

Quote:

Some people experience a disjunction...

And yes, some people experience a disjunction. We are both at the same time, individual and social creatures.Those that tend to experience a disjunction haven't taken the time necessary to discover their own individuality - to balance their social aspect.

Social pressure can trigger a firming of individuality, or - if if the person has given to much of their 'self' to the social aspect - social pressure can make the disjunction worse.

Rebellion by the way, doesn't necessarily lead to the discovery of your self. What you fight you become tied to.

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@vikorr,

I think the fact you see it as 'rebellion' means you have missed the point somewhat.

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@The Pentacle Queen,

Please excuse me, but see 'what' as rebellion?

My comments on rebellion were a generic statement regarding a common misconception because it is related to the subject of disjunction, and not a comment on a specific statement in the posts so far.

So when you say you see 'it' as rebellion - I'm not sure what 'it' (is that) you are referring to.

Taking a guess - it appears you think that I equate disjunction to rebellion? If so, that is not the case, though they can relate to each other.

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In my experience the call to man up and grow some balls almost always comes from women, who want to be in relationship with a man, not one of those neutered by feminist pressure. A lot of women want a man who is strong enough to stand up to their emotional storms, they feel safer knowing that they have a real man around.

It is interesting though to watch my college boy and his friends, for them being men is something to be done behind closed doors with friends that they trust, otherwise "being a man" equals never threatening females, and always doing what is expected of them.....it is quiet passivity and conformity.

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Just to clear this issue up completely...a distinction that impacts on the matter:

There is a medical distinction between Guts and Balls.

GUTS - Is arriving home late after a night out with the guys, being met by
your wife with a broom, and having the Guts to ask: 'Are you still cleaning,
or are you flying somewhere?'

BALLS - Is coming home late after a night out with the guys, smelling of
perfume and beer, lipstick on your collar, slapping your wife on the butt
and having the Balls to say: 'You're next, Chubby.'

I hope this clears up any confusion on the definitions.

Medically speaking there is No difference in the outcome.

Both are Fatal.

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Do REAL men get married?
I never married because I never wanted to be a soft "family man" with a wife and kids hanging round my neck.. Smile

PS- My 30-yr old niece sometimes visits me with her toddler son and I have to hide all sharp objects and pens and pencils before they arrive, but on their last visit I accidentally left a pen out and was stabbed in the leg with it

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My experience is that someone who tells you to "man up" is some weenie who is trying to imply that he is a man, and you're not. With all such deprecating admonitions, it's really a case of saying that if you don't agree with me, there's something wrong with you. Ha!

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@Romeo Fabulini,

A real man wouldn't mind being stabbed. He'd laugh and shake it off and amputate his own leg.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

I have used the expression "man up" several times during the last few days...and each time I have felt a pang of guilt, because of what I said in this thread, PQ.

I couldn't remember which thread it was...but when I saw this post, it came back that it was yours.

Sorry I did...but it was (in my warped opinion) necessary. I promise that whenever I feel it necessary to use it, it is not ever intended as an insult of any sort toward women.

I've been reading along this thread with some interest.

I have used the term "man up" and refuse to feel guilt about it. I use it not because of what Set said, about being a weinie either.

When I've said to someone (either male or female, I don't discriminate) I mean it as it "Look, if I can handle this, you can too"

1 Reply

The pressure to 'be a man'.

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