8
   

A penitent troll apologises for mocking atheism. On show here!

 
 
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 05:10 pm
@mikeymojo,
mikeymojo wrote:

That's where Ptolemy messed up. He created the concept of earth being the center of the universe before the proper technology was around to confirm his claim. And it was deemed truth for most of civilized history. His concept turned something that really is (earth is not the center of the universe) into something it's really not (earth is the center of the universe). And people believed it without any evidence but Ptolemy's, which obviously wasn't correct, as technology has proven.

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/GR/centre.html (is suggest you read the whole article).

Where is the centre of the universe?

There is no centre of the universe! According to the standard theories of cosmology, the universe started with a "Big Bang" about 14 thousand million years ago and has been expanding ever since. Yet there is no centre to the expansion; it is the same everywhere. The Big Bang should not be visualised as an ordinary explosion. The universe is not expanding out from a centre into space; rather, the whole universe is expanding and it is doing so equally at all places, as far as we can tell.

In 1929 Edwin Hubble announced that he had measured the speed of galaxies at different distances from us, and had discovered that the farther they were, the faster they were receding. This might suggest that we are at the centre of the expanding universe, but in fact if the universe is expanding uniformly according to Hubble's law, then it will appear to do so from any vantage point.

If we see a galaxy B receding from us at 10,000 km/s, an alien in galaxy B will see our galaxy A receding from it at 10,000 km/s in the opposite direction. Another galaxy C twice as far away in the same direction as B will be seen by us as receding at 20,000 km/s. The alien will see it receding at 10,000 km/s:

A B C
From A 0 km/s 10,000 km/s 20,000 km/s
From B -10,000 km/s 0 km/s 10,000 km/s

So from the point of view of the alien at B, everything is expanding away from it, whichever direction it looks in, just the same as it does for us.

+++++++++++++

So, in a sense everyone and everything is at the center of the universe and in this sense those who say we are not are incorrect. Anywhere in this uniform distribution can be classed as being the center... because of that one can also say that there is no center but that is not what most think was refuted i.e. Ptolemy.. they say we are on the outer arm of an insignificant galaxy and that cannot be the center of the universe 'because' of that fact... but that understanding is now defunct.
mikeymojo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 05:18 pm
@igm,
Ptolemy believed the universe revolved around the earth, the sun included. That is much different than everything moving away from each other. Ptolemy was still wrong.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 05:20 pm
@igm,
Amended my last post...

Also, non-duality is a deeper understanding IMO... but current science now debunks the notion of not being in the center as everything can be said to be at the center as shown above.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 05:24 pm
@mikeymojo,
Yes, but not in the way most people think... they think that our position in this unremarkable galaxy means that we cannot be in the center of the Universe...they believe that, that notion debunked Ptolemy... that is my point.... when in fact every so called sub-atomic particle is simultaneously at the center of the universe.... or it can be viewed that way... as it is the same thing essentially as saying there is no specific center to the Universe.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 05:25 pm
@mikeymojo,
[quotePtolemy believed the universe revolved around the earth, the sun included. That is much different than everything moving away from each other. Ptolemy was still wrong. ][/quote]

He may have been wrong but I do think it was the science of that time and was very useful if I am not mistake.
Do you think it may have been the best working model of that time? It may have been, I do not know the timeline of others who knew different. I could look it up but I am lazy at the moment.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 05:28 pm
@igm,
Quote:
Yes, but not in the way most people think... they think that our position in this unremarkable galaxy means that we cannot be in the center of the universe...


I thought most people where thinking about our solar system.
mikeymojo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 05:28 pm
@igm,
So the universe must either be flat and infinite or a sphere for there to be no center to it, right?
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 05:30 pm
@mikeymojo,
mikeymojo wrote:

So the universe must either be flat and infinite or a sphere for there to be no center to it, right?

That's what the math points to... yes... or everywhere is the center... take your pick.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 05:31 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:

Quote:
Yes, but not in the way most people think... they think that our position in this unremarkable galaxy means that we cannot be in the center of the universe...


I thought most people where thinking about our solar system.

mikeymojo wrote:

That's where Ptolemy messed up. He created the concept of earth being the center of the universe before the proper technology was around to confirm his claim. And it was deemed truth for most of civilized history. His concept turned something that really is (earth is not the center of the universe) into something it's really not (earth is the center of the universe). And people believed it without any evidence but Ptolemy's, which obviously wasn't correct, as technology has proven.
mikeymojo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 05:38 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:

[quotePtolemy believed the universe revolved around the earth, the sun included. That is much different than everything moving away from each other. Ptolemy was still wrong. ]


He may have been wrong but I do think it was the science of that time and was very useful if I am not mistake.
Do you think it may have been the best working model of that time? It may have been, I do not know the timeline of others who knew different. I could look it up but I am lazy at the moment.
[/quote]
I don't either, I too am feeling lazy. I agree the science probably sucked back then and the model did work as people accepted it for so long. But it was a concept that was held to be true, though it truely wasn't when science debunked it.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 05:39 pm
@igm,
People did have a reason to think such thoughts and their reasons where the evidence they seen, it just turns out that knew information comes along and disproves what is thought to be factual at times.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 05:50 pm
@reasoning logic,
He thought we were at the center of the universe... we then thought we weren't because of our position within the galaxy... but now with relativity we can now say that we are (as is everywhere in the universe) at the center... once more... so Ptolemy was correct but for the wrong reasons... and those who believed science had shown our position to be definitely not the centre are also superseded... so, what is truth? It is not absolute... it constantly changes and Ptolemy was broadly speaking correct for the wrong reasons (or was he?).... there is much current science that appears correct because the reasoning is incorrect... waiting for 'bright young things' to debunk it.
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 06:01 pm
@igm,
igm wrote:

He thought we were at the center of the universe... we then thought we weren't because of our position within the galaxy... but now with relativity we can now say that we are (as is everywhere in the universe) at the center... once more... so Ptolemy was correct but for the wrong reasons... and those who believed science had shown our position to be definitely not the centre are also superseded... so, what is truth? It is not absolute... it constantly changes and Ptolemy was broadly speaking correct for the wrong reasons.... there is much current science that appears correct because the reasoning is incorrect... waiting for 'bright young things' to debunk it.

"We are at the center" and "there is no center" are not the same.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 06:03 pm
@igm,
I think that science deals more with working models and which ones work best.
I hear that theories are more about science yet facts are needed "they are a dime a dozen, It seem to be how the facts are linked together that make the best working model of the time.
0 Replies
 
mikeymojo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 06:04 pm
@igm,
igm wrote:

Yes, but not in the way most people think... they think that our position in this unremarkable galaxy means that we cannot be in the center of the Universe...they believe that, that notion debunked Ptolemy... that is my point.... when in fact every so called sub-atomic particle is simultaneously at the center of the universe.... or it can be viewed that way... as it is the same thing essentially as saying there is no specific center to the Universe.


I understand what you're saying igm, and I don't believe you are wrong. Yes everywhere could be the center of the universe, that is possible. Ptolemy didn't think that to be so though, it's clear he thought earth was the only center for which the cosmos revolved around. His concept didn't match reality but was still considered true. He tried to explain something he wasn't fully equipped to explain at the time, and was debunked later in time. Philosophy in a nutshell.
0 Replies
 
mikeymojo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 06:04 pm
@igm,
igm wrote:

Yes, but not in the way most people think... they think that our position in this unremarkable galaxy means that we cannot be in the center of the Universe...they believe that, that notion debunked Ptolemy... that is my point.... when in fact every so called sub-atomic particle is simultaneously at the center of the universe.... or it can be viewed that way... as it is the same thing essentially as saying there is no specific center to the Universe.


I understand what you're saying igm, and I don't believe you are wrong. Yes everywhere could be the center of the universe, that is possible. Ptolemy didn't think that to be so though, it's clear he thought earth was the only center for which the cosmos revolved around. His concept didn't match reality but was still considered true. He tried to explain something he wasn't fully equipped to explain at the time, and was debunked later in time. Philosophy in a nutshell.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 06:07 pm
@Brandon9000,
Explain the difference... for example the surface of a ball? Every point on that ball is could be said to be the center of it but as there is no actual single point that is the center one can also say there is no center... so both are true and untrue at the same time... paradoxically... the same is true but for slightly different reasons vis -a- vis the universe.
0 Replies
 
mikeymojo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 06:07 pm
@mikeymojo,
Apologies for the double post.
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 06:13 pm
@mikeymojo,
Yes, I think my point was... there is no findable absolute truth... but there are some here who believe... there is... they even say that if there is no absolute truth then that is the absolute truth... but I disagree... (it was brought up around the time in this thread that Ptolemy was brought up and what I've mentioned in these last few posts came into my mind as an example of the insubstantiality of so called truths... progress may be an illusion... a temporary pleasing (for some) mirage).
igm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Dec, 2013 06:18 pm
@igm,
Amended (added a few lines to) my last post.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Atheism - Discussion by littlek
The tolerant atheist - Discussion by Tuna
Another day when there is no God - Discussion by edgarblythe
church of atheism - Discussion by daredevil
Can An Atheist Have A Soul? - Discussion by spiritual anrkst
THE MAGIC BUS COMES TO CANADA - Discussion by Setanta
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.09 seconds on 12/22/2024 at 07:59:34