Do you beleive in god?

YES.

"Ultimate Reality" is too subjective - even theologically speaking. Somebody may think he/she understands ultimate reality, but we can't measure (quality and quantity) what that means. I disagree with your opinion that humans have the capacity to know everything. I think it's impossible for one human to know everything. He/she may think they know everything, but most testing will show they don't.

To "know" is a cognitive thing; is "experience" to "know"?

The purpose of Buddhist practice is to combat suffering in all of it's forms. That is accomplished by being very mindful of the effects our thoughts, words, and action will have. We try to control our passions and attachments. There are many more Buddhist texts than anyone could reasonably read that discuss the nature of suffering, the sources of it, and how suffering is rooted in our misunderstanding of Ultimate Reality. Generations of Buddhists, of many schools and sects, have "bought into" this system. If that were all that we could bring to the table, then at best we Buddhists could only be said to have very "deep" belief in the truths of our religion. Some would insist that their belief were so fervent as to approach "knowing". BS.

We can look for contradictions to the evidence compiled by the Scientific Method, and the laws of physics and mathematics. So far as I can understand, Buddhist notions about the nature of the universe and reality do not conflict in any significant way with either Relativity, nor Quantum Theory, and that's quite a feat in itself. Science, especially along the frontiers being explored today, is rational, but difficult to understand and easy to screw-up by making the smallest of errors in an arcane equation. This is a means of "knowing", but one that we still have to regard with suspicion when talking about the nature of Ultimate Reality.

The Buddhism that Siddhartha taught was intended to provide a practical guide for the highly motivated to replicate the Tagatha's experience beneath the Bo Tree. When Siddartha sat down beneath the Tree swearing not to move until he solved the problem of suffering he was a high caste Hindu who had spent years seeking his goal without success. While sitting there he had a transcendental experience in which he realized the illusory nature of the perceptual world. He understood the sources of suffering, and that by having the transcendental experience suffering could be overcome. Living a good, blameless life will doubtless reduce suffering, but it can not conquer it. By developing our minds we can reduce ignorance, one of the great sources of suffering, but suffering will still remain. Only by having the direct experience of Enlightenment can we "know" ultimate Reality, and in that "knowing" suffering is annihilated.

The dreamer wakes up and discovers that the tiger of his dreams has no more substance than his dream-self, so the pain of being eaten alive can no longer be a cause of suffering. Once awake, we can sagely nod and acknowledge the emptiness of the dream world, but then we may roll over and go back to sleep only to dream again. However, the dream is ever after altered by the memory of that brief moment (an infinite time) when we were awake. The once Awakened are still subject to the same physical laws that govern all of perceptual reality, but they carry with them an understanding that profoundly changes their thoughts, words and behavior. Enligtenment is the purpose of meditation. Meditation is far too often taught and practiced as an end in itself. Buddhist practice and meditation are useful, but they should never eclipse the goal.

Now, we have to realize that all personal experiences are subjective and can't be easily measured, nor easily verified. The person who reports an Enlightenment experience may be a liar, a madman, or a sage. People should doubt and question the veracity of such reports. Here are a few things to look for: If the person has anything to gain from their claim, then increase your doubts; If the person claims supernatural powers they should be asked to provide spectacular proofs; If the person is disorganized, irrational about common things, or fearful they may need a good psychiatrist.

Look carefully a the person's life, if it is mis-shapen, warped, and gives rise to a whole lot of suffering, run like the wind.

If, on the other hand, the person's life is in balance and they are attentive to small things, that's a good sign. openness and compassion are the sort of attributes one expects to find in someone who has experienced Enlightenment. Sages, those whose understanding of things is based on personal experience/knowing, are generally playful and appreciate a good joke. They may, from time to time, say and do things that same strange, and inexplicable, but there will be an underlying rational to their behavior. Recognized Buddhist sages have been known to kick a dog, slap an accolyte, or continue to pour scalding tea long after the cup has overflowed. There is a timelessness about how these folks regard the world. For those who have experienced directly and personally Enlightenment, they and their world is permanently altered ... and it will be evident at least to others who have also had the experience.

How many have this experience, and are they all Buddhists? Many people in different cultures and religious disciplines have had the experience. Poets and artists are frequently believed to have experienced Ultimate Reality as well. Often, these folks are declared heretics. Not having the Buddhist vocabulary, Westerners must describe their experiences only in reference to the existing weltanschauung of their cultural grouping. Mystics like Meister Eckhardt, and Bishop berkely wrote about insights that certainly seem to be the same as the Enlightenment experience we find in Buddhist texts and history.

In the end, we can find out for ourselves. Try following Buddhist prescriptions and practices. Learn proper meditation, and then practice it. If your life doesn't become better you can always go on to something different. Buddhist practice should lead to greater harmony in your personal life as you cause less suffering. Your example should inspire others to be more mindful, and in turn they will suffer less and cause less suffering. As your meditation becomes more practiced the boundaries begin to blur. One day you will suddenly realize that most of your waking hours are really meditative. Prepare the ground, plow it and plant the seeds. Keep the ground moist and free of weeds. Pay attention to each little plant, and you will have little time to worry over what seems to be the careless stewardship of your neighbor. One morning, or in the twilight, you will walk out into the field and there in an guarded moment something will happen. Time will slow to zero. Distance will expand infinitely. A great void will lie before you and your ego will shrink down to nothing. If you are unprepared, you may be frightened of that annhilation and madness, but if you have prepared the end of the Self will be a joy. With no remaining ego, no Self, and outside of dimensionality, there is only mergence into the undifferentiated Ultimate Reality. Returned to un-divided ultimate Reality we are both no more, and all things. In Abrahamic terms we have returned to God.

Bon Voyage. Pay attention.

One God.

Question: why not a third option, "Maybe"?

..or like my buddy once said to a priest, asked why he didn't come to church anymore, "I believe in God, but I don't belive in his ground personnel".

Have you seen how huge and ornate some of those cathedrals are? It isn't that God doesn't exist- he just can't AFFORD THE RENT.

Equus, You've spoken more than a mouthful. What is more disturbing is that no matter what religion, the edifice they build to honor their god(s) far exceeds the communities ability to afford it. Gold domes and stained glass windows in the midst of poverty is not justified.

Well it's pretty simple, you either do, or you don't. I thought about have ing "maybe" for an option, but really.

Thanks Asherman, I agree with most of your points. I have a bit of difficulty with the "perceptions are illusory" part, but I am perfectly willing to accept a subconcious "Enlightenment". I have had them myself. Was I ever disappointed when I woke up .

There also can be something said for the view that our illusions quite often form a part of our reality. A certain amount of difficulty arises though when say G.W. Bush's reality (which may be illusional) and Osama bin Ladens reality (also perhaps illusional) do not coincide with the reality (perhaps illusional) of the body politic.

So could it be fair to say that some peoples illusions ( when confused with reality) causes a certain amount of suffering? Personally I have trouble telling an injured person that it's all in her mind. Or telling a Sudanese kid that it shouldn't bother him not to eat for a week or so as this existence is merely illusionary.

Basically I think what I am trying to say is that something is real. Damned if I know what it is though.

CI,
I agree that no human (for purely mechanical reasons ) can know everything. Mechanical reasons being for one, our mortality. There is just not enough time to learn everything. Also I suspect that the capacity of a human brain is somewhat less than infinite. BUT I also suspect that everything can be known, although not by any one person.

Some of "what is known" can be misinformation. That's the reason why "ultimate reality" cannot be achieved - even though one person might think they know.

akaMechsmith. It seems to me that "knowing everything" is not the same thing as knowing "ultimate reality." Knowing everything is a scientific possibility, if that means finding the answers to all our questions. We will not find the answers to questions we do not ask, obviously. But that means, don't you think, that the world beyond our questions has nothing to do with knowing? Ultimate Reality, if it means anything, has to do with mystical experience. It is not "knowledge" in the sense of fact attainment or accurate theoretical modeling of the universe. It has more to do with self-realization, the realization that ends suffering, an enlightenment that puts an end, even, to our questioning. We may still want "facts" that serve instrumental ends, but our craving for insights to end our existential anxieties ends. This might be something like the Buddhists' notion of an end to karmic re-birth.

I believe Mark Twain said something similar in his wonderful story of the _Mysterious Stranger_, the ending of which I can never get out of my mind. Except that Twain seems to conclude that the dreamer is all that exists, and that it is God.




There are many sources for the full story on the web. Here is one:
http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/TwaMyst.html

I hope there's a god... that option wasn't available.

I had forgotten Twain's Mysterious Stranger. Thank you for reminding me. I've always been a fan of his. My first "big" bood was A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" when I was about six years old. I still have that copy somewhere in the library. Rosebud.....

JLN's quote, "It has more to do with self-realization, the realization that ends suffering, an enlightenment that puts an end, even, to our questioning." Without understanding the mysticism of "ultimate reality," it just seems awfully naive to think that one individual's realization that ends suffering is myopic and unrealistic while we have starvation and wars going on constantly around us. A hermit can live in the middle of nowhere and detach himself/herself from his/her earthly surroundings (all peoples and media), but that's escapeism. Just because the hermit doesn't realize there is suffering, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Suffering is endemic to sentient beings existing with perceptual reality. It WILL NOT go away so long as we permit ourselves to be caught up in Maya. To Awaken to the true nature of things can liberate the individual who experiences it, but even they continue to experience suffering (though to a lesser degree) so long as they are a part of the perceptual world.

The only complete "cure" for suffering is for the underlying Dream to end. There is no Dreamer, and the Dream is self-perpetuating. In Ultimate Reality there are no beginnings and no endings. Suffering arises from ignorance, and as individuals (who themselves have no substance) become aware the extent and suffering that continues within the Illusory world of Maya is mitigated. On a more practical level, and Buddhism is truly more practical than mystical, by living the sort of mindful life prescribe within the Dharma we can reduce almost immediately our own suffering and the suffering of other sentient beings. Ultimate Reality is timeless, there is no great hurry beyond our compassion.

The strictest practice of Buddhism is probably found in the monasteries. In the monastery one can escape the distractionary hurdles of daily life. With no family to provide for and among others who have renounced the world, monk and nuns may sit in meditation for up to 8 hours every day, and fill the rest of their waking hours in walking or working meditation. Free of temptations to become emotionally involved in the Illusory World, the number of those who successfully Awaken is almost certainly larger than we would find in the world outside. Many monks and nuns never experience even a glimpse of Enlightenment. Once a person has achieved the goal they have basically three choices: 1. Never rejoin the Illusory World at all, this may leave the corporeal body either comatose or dead; 2. Return to perceptual reality and remain as a teacher within the monastic order, or 3. Leave the monastic life and as a householder live in such a way as to reduce suffering in the world at large. All three approaches "work" and contribute to the larger goal of conquering suffering.

Why I wanted a third option, stand up for pessimism, is because I don't know (yet) whether I should believe in a God or not. Until about two years ago, I did not think about a God or religion because I found it just a bunch of crap. This feeling got stronger by seeing the Pope (I'm Roman Catholic) being so old and fragile (I thought: is HE the leader of more than a billion people on this planet??), and by the large number of scandals concerning some Catholic priests and their "preference" for young boys.

But, as I said, about two years ago I started to think about it more and more. I'm a very pessimistic and rational person, and I said to myself: when I have proof of a God or something like it, I will believe in it. That was of course stupid, because I slowly found out that religion and God is more a feeling than simply saying: well looking at this DNA-profile we found, there has to be a God.

But now I'm 17 I still don't know whether there is something higher or not - I'm still searching. I also got the urge to visit for the first time in 4 years Church again. But I simply don't know what to believe, IF I should believe. That's why I wanted a third option, "Maybe".

I'm kind of amazed - on other polls have have not seen the margin this close.

I'm sure the poll results depend on how the question is phrased.

In this case, I could have answered either way, depending on how I chose to interpret the question.