Rockhead
 
  4  
Reply Sun 8 Dec, 2013 07:56 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I just puked a little bit in my mouth, finny.

do you practice this pompous **** in front of a mirror first?
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Dec, 2013 08:00 pm
@Rockhead,
Did you swallow?
0 Replies
 
Ragman
 
  3  
Reply Sun 8 Dec, 2013 08:00 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I wonder whether or not Gen. George Washington should be considered as a great man because had chosen a violent path?
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Dec, 2013 08:01 pm
@Ragman,
By those who revere non-violence, probably not.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Dec, 2013 08:13 pm
@Ragman,
Personally, I don't have a problem with Mandela having decided to resort to violence, and I don't think that he did, diminishes him.

I made the point because there are many who wish to deify him who conveniently forget this aspect of his story.

By the time he was released from prison (thanks to the political and economic pressure of the West) he could have easily led black South Africans in a blood bath. The rest of the world (the West) might have uttered protests but white South Africans would still have been slaughtered.

This is hardly comparable to the situtation in which Washington found himself: Leading an army of citizens in violent struggle against a professional army of occupation; largely manned by foreign mercenaries.

In any case, it should have been obvious that my comparison between Mandela and Washington was that neither chose to exploit their opportunities and amass great personal power. That to me, is greatness.
0 Replies
 
Below viewing threshold (view)
izzythepush
 
  2  
Reply Mon 9 Dec, 2013 05:08 am
Quote:
By the time apartheid came to an end, the South African economy had spent years being battered by sanctions. The infrastructure was, and remains, the most highly-developed in Africa, but the years of economic isolation were taking their toll.

In some senses, Mr Mandela and the African National Congress (ANC) inherited an economy that was heading for bankruptcy.

So, it was to prove a difficult task to create a silk purse of an economy from the pig's ear that Apartheid had left behind. However, many analysts point out that great strides were made in delivering some of the Freedom Charter aspirations in the early years of the new South Africa.

Dawie Roodt, chief economist at the Efficient Group, says: "Many millions of people got running water, electricity, etc.

"But the infrastructure was neglected, and slowly state inefficiency and corruption became serious problems."

On the surface, at least, things looked good at the start. Inflation, which was running at 14% before 1994, fell to 5% within 10 years.

South Africa's budget deficit, which was 8% in 1997, fell to 1.5% in 2004. Interest rates dropped from 16% to under 9% in the first decade of the ANC government.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-23041513
hingehead
 
  3  
Reply Tue 10 Dec, 2013 03:21 am
@izzythepush,
Just listening to an expat South African - expelled under apartheid commenting on the ABC about the claims of 'worse poverty'. His first point was that the Apartheid govt didn't keep statistics of black poverty in the 70s, 80s and 90s - and his second point was after apartheid fell the country became a major destination of choice for refugees in Africa and their policy has been largely open border.

I've often wondered if Hawk was a sociopath or a troll - or what measure of both/either. It's not much of an argument. The proof is in the attendance of world leaders to the funeral of a man out of power for 10 years -and the number of nations they come from - where else would you find a Castro and a US president in the same place?

I'm not here to lionise Mandela but it seems like he resents the attention this is taking away from him.

[Edited to remove my misinterpretation/misrepresentation of Finn.]
hawkeye10
 
  -3  
Reply Tue 10 Dec, 2013 03:49 am
@hingehead,
Quote:
The proof is in the attendance of world leaders to the funeral of a man out of power for 10 years -and the number of nations they come from - where else would you find a Castro and a US president in the same place?

well there you go, now I know that the mafia Godfathers were great men!
hingehead
 
  3  
Reply Tue 10 Dec, 2013 04:03 am
@hawkeye10,
How so Hawk?

Can you name a mafia leader whose funeral was attended by a former British prime minster, the prime minister of australia, the vice president of china, the presidents of the USA, Namibia and Cuba. Just one mafia leader for that tiny subset of Mandela funeral attendees.

Go on - you're so right - that will be easy. Or are you just lashing out with **** because you don't have anything sensible to say?
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  4  
Reply Tue 10 Dec, 2013 04:22 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
It's hard for me to imagine that the pre-prison, avowed Marxist wasn't touched by God during his dark years.


Hmmm - what I'm reading is that he was a lifelong christian - and in fact didn't join the Communist Party because of that. Although he did forge links with the CP in the ANC, and was influenced by the some of the classic texts he saw the struggle as race-based not class-based.

As for his writings from prison, once he got privs he corresponded a lot, say in the early 70s, even managing an autobiography, before they clamped down on him again for a few years.
0 Replies
 
Lordyaswas
 
  5  
Reply Tue 10 Dec, 2013 06:00 am
Just watched Obama's speech at Nelson Mandela's memorial. You lot in the US, even the idiots like hawkeye, should be proud of him. What an orator.

He's done America proud today.

0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 10 Dec, 2013 07:27 am
Good riddance to the commie terrorist..Smile

WIKI- "Mandela himself denied ever being a Communist Party member, but after his death, the Communist Party and the ANC confirmed that he was a Communist Party member when he was arrested in 1962.
He said he would resort to "guerilla warfare and terrorism".
In Ethiopia, he began a six-month course in guerrilla warfare.
Botha offered him a release from prison on condition that he '"unconditionally rejected violence as a political weapon".
Mandela spurned the offer"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela


PS- A Sth Carolina sheriff refused to lower the flag, good for him!
"The flag in his department was lowered over the weekend to honor a fallen law enforcement officer and for Pearl Harbor Day. But it will stay up Sunday, he said.
"I have no problem lowering it in South Africa in their country but not for our country. It should be the people who have sacrificed for our country."
A spokesman for the department said the sheriff cannot be disciplined"
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/12/08/us/sheriff-mandela-no-half-staff/
Lordyaswas
 
  8  
Reply Tue 10 Dec, 2013 10:43 am
@Romeo Fabulini,
"Good riddance to the commie terrorist.."


Oh christ....another ******* idiot.

Just goes to show that Britain is not exempt.

Foofie
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 10 Dec, 2013 11:36 am
This morning, upon awakening to the BBC radio news, the presenter stated the stadium had a steady rain with about 20,000 spectators. The stadium holds 95,000 people. Then by early morning, a different newscast stated that there were "tens of thousands" present for the stadium speeches?

Regardless of which presenter was correct, the media's efforts at honoring this man makes me wonder if collectively the west today wants to distance itself from the mentality that allowed apartheid to exist in the recent past. However, I do not see the African continent really being anything but a continent where only Black Africans feel at home. I would guess that sometime in the future, South Africa will become an all Black country, for all intensive purposes. I believe that is the most realistic view.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 10 Dec, 2013 11:57 am
@Foofie,
Mandela might be a lot like Gorbachev, loved by much of the global elite but not so much at home. Remember that the ANC has constantly traded on Mandela's name even as nothing has changed for blacks economically in 20 years, even as the state has become even more corrupt than it was, even as the state has not taken hardly any interest in educating the black population. Mandela stayed quiet as he entertained the foreign dignitary's who came to pay homage to him .

Besides, other than bringing the World Cup which helped them not at all and doing a few speeches on AIDS Mandela had not done anything for SA blacks in over a decade. For the most part this man has been a historical icon only for some time, his body finally giving out does not change much.

One last thing, I saw commentary that the ANC could be counted on to turn the funeral into a pro ANC rally, and that the people are pretty much fed up with the ANC so that this was not going to go down well. We shall see if this is correct.
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 10 Dec, 2013 12:03 pm
I heard one of Mandela's old supporters let slip on TV a couple of days ago that "Mandela had a gun during his activist days and kept it buried so the authorities wouldn't find it"
Incidentally S.Africa is now one of the most violent countries on earth.
That figgers, because as soon as the blacks took over it descended back into the jungle like the other African nations who've kicked out the whites.
Nice going Mandela..Wink
timur
 
  5  
Reply Tue 10 Dec, 2013 12:36 pm
@Lordyaswas,
Coldjoint and Pamela Rosa in disguise.
hingehead
 
  3  
Reply Tue 10 Dec, 2013 01:37 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Wow, you really are a thick headed asshole aren't you? Don't even know where to begin pulling apart the ignorance and stupidity in that statement. You've outdone yourself.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 10 Dec, 2013 05:20 pm
@hingehead,
Why don't you try?

I'm not sympathetic to Romeo's basic point but he is right about violence in South Africa, and African nations, as a whole, have hardly kept pace with the development of former European colonies elsewhere in the world.

Where Mandela fits in is difficult to imagine, but perhaps that's the only igornance and stupidity you found in his comment.
 

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