Moment-in-Time
 
  4  
Reply Sun 8 Dec, 2013 01:31 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Quote:

Mandela made a difference. In many respects, Mandela stands alone in that he used violence because he said "non-violence is not working for us."


Mandela was also criticized for embracing Fidel Castro of Cuba, the Communist leader. Mandela said when a man is drowning one doesn't care what the political ideology is of the hand extended to save his life.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -3  
Reply Sun 8 Dec, 2013 01:35 pm
the Russians sometimes make good points

Quote:
The apartheid regime was wily enough to secure control of the Central Bank – with crucial IMF help – and South Africa’s trade policy. Mandela secured only a (very significant) political victory. The ANC only found out it had been conned when it took power. Forget about its socialist idea of nationalizing the mining and banking industries – owned by Western capital, and distribute the benefits to the indigenous population. The West would never allow it. And to make matters worse, the ANC was literally hijacked by a sorry, greedy bunch.

Follow the roadmap
John Pilger is spot on pointing to economic apartheid in South Africa now with a new face.

Patrick Bond has written arguably the best expose anywhere of the Mandela years – and their legacy.

And Ronnie Kasrils does a courageous mea culpa dissecting how Mandela and the ANC accepted a devil’s pact with the usual suspects.

The bottom line: Mandela defeated apartheid but was defeated by neoliberalism. And that’s the dirty secret of him being allowed sainthood.

http://rt.com/op-edge/mandela-legacy-hijacked-death-903/

so lets have our feel good orgy and build a monument to this guy, but dont look too deep, and dont ask too many questions.
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 8 Dec, 2013 01:47 pm
another off script analysis

Quote:
Yet, the Mandela Decade failed to achieve many of its ambitions, The idea of "forgiveness and reconciliation" was for Mandela a correct and irreversible step. This was also the conviction of church leaders who, together with exponents of a long standing tradition of Cape White Liberalism, argued that nation-building could not occur until the ghosts of the past were settled.

Such arguments resulted in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. It was both a process of confession and a dramatic staging of reconciliation that would release forgiveness, toleration and reconstruction. It was to be the grand, sorrowful performance and ritual of a society re-making itself. It was to be one of the most compromised, yet significant pieces of nation-building ever imagined.

In turn, the idea of the rainbow as a narrative for nation-building and unity has proven to be a disappointment. For many younger people in South Africa, black and white, especially from the middle-classes, the concept found an easy-go-lucky resonance. But it is fair to say that its failure was extensive. The straps of racism were too close to white hearts. The refusal of the white population to own the past frightened and angered Mandela. The backlash from the African intelligentsia and the emerging black middle classes brought back the rain clouds; there was no space in their status scripts for such a notion.

Future historians will have to bring their own factual scales - from the perspective inside this unfolding transition, the hope for a nonracial and diverse culture of tolerance seems to have failed. South Africa is not a society of shared norms and ideas; it is, rather, a social formation still bound by need and greed and held together by new regulatory social institutions. The factual scales will have to decide on a more nuanced judgment, but they will have to weigh too the feeling that, alongside a remarkable transition, the Mandela decade left behind a profound sense of failure felt by the very people who struggled to create a nonracial and diverse nation.

Ari Sitas is a sociologist, poet based at the University of Cape Town. He is also author of The Mandela Decade and Theoretical parables: Voices that reason

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2013/07/mandela-legacy-201371717017499138.html

0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  4  
Reply Sun 8 Dec, 2013 01:50 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
The bottom line: Mandela defeated apartheid...

That's enough of an accomplishment to warrant building those monuments to him.
hawkeye10
 
  -4  
Reply Sun 8 Dec, 2013 02:02 pm
@firefly,
firefly wrote:

Quote:
The bottom line: Mandela defeated apartheid...

That's enough of an accomplishment to warrant building those monuments to him.
do he did not, a lot of people got together and defeated political apartheid, people from all around the world. Mandela was a rallying cry, a symbol, nothing more in that effort. His great accomplishment was in unifying the nation after, but he did it by approving of the continuation of economic apartheid which persists to this day. The victory was partial, and the press releases a sham.
Lordyaswas
 
  7  
Reply Sun 8 Dec, 2013 03:09 pm
@hawkeye10,
Hawkeye, couldn't you, just for a few days, pretend that Nelson Mandela was white, so you could feel free to give him the credit he deserved?

hawkeye10
 
  -4  
Reply Sun 8 Dec, 2013 03:16 pm
@Lordyaswas,
Lordyaswas wrote:

Hawkeye, couldn't you, just for a few days, pretend that Nelson Mandela was white, so you could feel free to give him the credit he deserved?


in other words cant I be like a black south African and suspend my disappointment with the current reality to praise a man who helped to get us here upon his death.......three days of morning max in my limit.

as several commentators in the world press have noted the ANC is now without its feel good mascot, and the people have been growing extremely upset with the reality of SA....I expect riots and the launch of the next phase of the Revolution with-in 24 months. but there is a party to go to right now, in honor of this man Mandela, so lets get drunk!
0 Replies
 
Lordyaswas
 
  5  
Reply Sun 8 Dec, 2013 03:26 pm
It's funny how the vast majority of the people around the world hold this man to their hearts and mourn his passing, whilst couch experts with dubious political leanings like yourself seem to resent that adulation and do their best to piss on the parade.

Shame.
Rockhead
 
  4  
Reply Sun 8 Dec, 2013 03:27 pm
@Lordyaswas,
he is desperately trying to show all of us that he is not a victim.

rather a loudmouth asshole abuser than that...

may mr Mandela rest in peace despite honkeye's attention seeking antics.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  4  
Reply Sun 8 Dec, 2013 03:52 pm
I'm not sure how many of us agree with everything done and said by Mandela, but on balance I thought he was incredibly brave and honorable. I was heartened when he quietly left Winnie due to her part in murders in the name of freedom and other excesses, personal and political so they say...

No matter what we may think of some of the smaller details of his beliefs and aspirations, the larger defining truth about this man, to me, was his refusal to bend on equality and fairness. He wouldn't shut up. He wouldn't take a pardon and disappear. I was thankful to see a man of conscience and integrity. His name and story belong beside the greatest of us.
hawkeye10
 
  -3  
Reply Sun 8 Dec, 2013 04:04 pm
@Lash,
Quote:
was his refusal to bend on equality and fairness.
in 20 years there has been ZERO transfer of wealth to blacks outside of a handful of corrupt ANC party insiders.

Where was Mandela on that subject?
timur
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Dec, 2013 04:04 pm
"Behind every great man, there's a great woman".

Nelson Mandela talking about his wife Graça Machel:

"I cannot describe my joy and happiness to receive the love and warmth of such a humble but gracious and brilliant lady," Mandela wrote at the time. "It gives me unbelievable comfort and satisfaction to know that there [is] somebody somewhere in the universe on whom I can rely, especially on matters where my political comrades cannot provide me."
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Dec, 2013 04:06 pm
@timur,
Hey, keep trying til you get it right. Wink
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  2  
Reply Sun 8 Dec, 2013 04:12 pm
@hawkeye10,
I should tie myself to no particular system of society other than of socialism.
Nelson Mandela

He was working on it. I don't know how useful it is to have expectations of him above and beyond those we have of anyone else. Not deifying him, mind you.
0 Replies
 
Moment-in-Time
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Dec, 2013 04:57 pm
@Lordyaswas,
Quote:
It's funny how the vast majority of the people around the world hold this man to their hearts and mourn his passing, whilst couch experts with dubious political leanings like yourself seem to resent that adulation and do their best to piss on the parade.

Shame.


A diehard racist is just that, uncompromising, even at this passing event of one who led the struggle to end apartheid....to free a people who were prisoners in their own land. But I'm not really surprised at the poster, Hawk, simply because our species consist of all manner of people with different outlooks, biases, and even deeper prejudices. In most cases people like the inflexible Hawk is a waste of time, truly, except in one way, one may always use him as a sounding board to let the rest of us know how they feel morally regarding the same topic.
hawkeye10
 
  -4  
Reply Sun 8 Dec, 2013 05:01 pm
@Moment-in-Time,
Quote:
In most cases people like the inflexible Hawk is a waste of time, truly, except in one way, one may always use him as a sounding board to let the rest of us know how they feel morally regarding the same topic.
the problem for the elites, and the elites in training, is that the elites have run America for a long while. and look at where we are.

the claims of superiority are easily seen to be false, and the obvious efforts by the elite to purge the conversation of decent shows how they are afraid of having the stories they tell undermined by the facts.
jcboy
 
  11  
Reply Sun 8 Dec, 2013 06:54 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

decent


You’re one person who should never mention the word “Decent” in any of your posts. You’ve bragged about how your wife sleeps around and how you beat your kids with a belt. You know if your kids had a “Decent” role model at home perhaps they wouldn’t have ended up working for minimum wage in some tacky dinner with the likes of you.

There I said it, yes I can be a bitch Wink
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Dec, 2013 07:30 pm
@timur,
timur wrote:

"Behind every great man, there's a great woman".

Nelson Mandela talking about his wife Graça Machel:

"I cannot describe my joy and happiness to receive the love and warmth of such a humble but gracious and brilliant lady," Mandela wrote at the time. "It gives me unbelievable comfort and satisfaction to know that there [is] somebody somewhere in the universe on whom I can rely, especially on matters where my political comrades cannot provide me."


What about Winnie?

She was practically deified as well.

I remember the Cosby Show wherein his twin gradchildren were named "Nelson" and "Winnie."
hawkeye10
 
  -4  
Reply Sun 8 Dec, 2013 07:32 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
What about Winnie?

excuse me, she is not to be spoken of.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 8 Dec, 2013 07:49 pm
Mandela the freed prisoner was a truly great man, who became a great leader of his country.

Before he was imprisoned...not so much.

All this means is that he wasn't born a great man as some would have us think.

While it's not at all difficult to understand why a leader of an oppressed people might ultimately conclude that violence was a necessary means to equality, if non-violence is important to you, then pre-prison Mandela was not a great man.

That he spent a quarter of his life; his prime years, in prison and emmerged with sincere forgiveness and the will to bring about his desired outcome without violence made him "great," in the sense that the word means elevated beyond normal human reactions and accomplishments.

A significant measure of his "greatness" as a political leader is that he left office. Compare and contrast him to Robert Mugabe the bitter dotard who clings to power through each and every means available; no matter how dishonest or reprehensible.

Mugabe, not Mandela is the model of the post-colonial African revolutionary leader. In fact, he is the model of world wide revolutionary leaders, throughout history.

I doubt I would have left a 27 year imprisonment as did Mandela. Whatever gave him the grace he obviously demonstrated is a powerful force of which the world needs a lot more.

I'm inspired to learn more of the man's thoughts during his imprisonment. Can anyone recommend a source?

It's hard for me to imagine that the pre-prison, avowed Marxist wasn't touched by God during his dark years.

I would like to think that those who hold him in such high esteem appreciate the similar greatness of George Washington and America's Founding Fathers, who, while perhaps not enduring the same degree of personal suffering as Mandela, like him, rejected the allure of power for the benefit of their nation.

Sadly, I doubt this is the case.

 

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