5
   

ART TROVE IN MUNICH WORTH 1.5 BILLION EUROS

 
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2013 05:02 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
And the German government of those days, from whom the father bought it, acquired the paintings in one of two ways: (1) Auctions in which the original owners sold them at fire-sale prices before leaving the country, and (2) taking possession of homes that their owners had abandoned in leaving the country. (By the laws of Germany, and I think most other Western countries, you can own abandoned property simply by possessing it.)

So as I see it, the heirs of the original owners would have to prove in court that fleeing prosecution does not constitute abandonment in a civil-law sense, or that selling pictures to a government under a general threat of persecution by it does not really constitute a sale. My moral instincts root for the heirs, but it may well be difficult and ugly.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2013 05:18 pm
Tangent so I'll click on small - a friend decided to try to reclaim ownership for her children on a big building in a russian state, from whence she as a child and her parents had all fled in WW2. I think it got too complicated and she cared more than the children, now in the u.s. did, but I'm not sure. I'll ask next time we talk.


Anyway, I'm reading along, very interested in what all of you are adding to this.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2013 12:36 am
@Thomas,
I agree. (And the Washington Conference Principles on Nazi-Confiscated Art are only valid for the public sector.)
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2013 03:53 am
@Walter Hinteler,
From the report in spiegel-online: Constitutional Expressionism: Legal Questions Overwhelm Art Find
Quote:
According to the Bavarian justice ministry, some 1,280 paintings and drawings were found in the apartment, although a figure of more than 1,400 works had been mentioned previously. The collection can be roughly divided into three groups:

First, there were the pictures that Hildebrand Gurlitt sold on behalf of the Nazi dictatorship, which it classified as "degenerate" and which he was expected to turn into hard currency abroad. The Bavarian investigators estimate that this category includes 380 works of art.
The second group consists of those works that were "seized in connection with acts of persecution," or the so-called looted art. These are works that were stolen from their Jewish owners. The Nazis confiscated entire collections, often forcing their sale. Top Nazi officials obtained some of the works, while others ended up with art dealers. Cornelius Gurlitt's collection apparently contained some 590 works that officials want to investigate as possible looted art.
The third group, which includes 310 artworks, appears to be more innocuous. Hildebrand Gurlitt's acquisition of some of the pieces may be above suspicion, perhaps because he purchased them before the Nazi era or because they were part of the family estate.


A lot more at the above link.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2013 08:26 am
@Walter Hinteler,
The prosecution will give the paintings back to Gurlitt, at least those more than 400, which he owns without any doubts.
Which leaves about 970, where the ownership has to be considered by the experts ...
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2013 12:19 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Spiegel:http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/berlin-art-expert-to-lead-research-on-munich-find-a-934279.html][b]Gurlitt Works: A Herculean Task in Identifying Provenance[/b]

Quote:
[...]The provenance researchers now have the task of clarifying the origins of the artworks with the necessary expedience given the politically charged nature of the situation. They are tasked with ascertaining the labyrinth history of every single one of the 570 paintings and, specifically, whether they belonged to Jews or other victims of the Nazis. It's a Herculean task.

But it is unlikely the researchers will be able to act with the urgency required. At the annual meeting of the Provenance Research Working Group last week in Hamburg, the around 60 attendees spoke of "undertaking the requisite research into the Munich art find as speedily as possible, but also in the necessary scientific quality."

The working group has existed for 10 years, but its members have not been able to agree on a standard for provenance specifications. It's more likely it will take the task force years rather than months to identifiy possible looted art in Gurlitt's collection. "Each case is unique," said one provenance researcher, "every picture is different."

At first, it also appeared that politicians and officials in Berlin were hesitant to include members of the Jewish Claims Conference among the experts reviewing the Gurlitt collection. With pressure growing, however, officials announced Monday that 10 experts would be part of the group probing the artworks, including two researchers with the organization, which has sought the return or restitution of Jewish property lost during the Holocaust.
"The Claims Conference has represented the interests of Jews persecuted by the Nazis for more than six decades in all questions about damages and restitution," Rüdiger Mahlo, the international organization's German representative, said last week. "It is self-explanatory that there should be representation of the Jewish victims on such a commission."

While the task force is being created, investigators in Augsburg are still receiving inquiries from lawyers who want to know whether artworks they are looking for on behalf of the heirs to the victims have been found in Gurlitt's apartment. Some 100 lawyers have already registered their interest with the public prosecutor's office. They have not received any answers.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2013 03:41 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
[...]Augsburg prosecutor Reinhard Nemetz said in a statement on Tuesday that artwork that was not suspicious, not stolen by the Nazis and "undoubtedly was the property of the accused" would be returned to Gurlitt "immediately."

"It is of key importance that works taken in connection with the Nazi persecution be identified so that outstanding property claims can be settled and possible previous owners can exercise their rights," said Nemetz. [...]
Source
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2013 03:43 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
[...]Augsburg prosecutor Reinhard Nemetz said in a statement on Tuesday that artwork that was not suspicious, not stolen by the Nazis and "undoubtedly was the property of the accused" would be returned to Gurlitt "immediately."

Immediately after sitting on them for two years. Only in Bavaria. . . .
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2013 03:53 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
Immediately after sitting on them for two years. Only in Bavaria. . . .
A bit less than two years ... "only" 19 months Wink
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Nov, 2013 04:48 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
That makes sense to me, the part of it about finding what happened re what.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2013 12:59 am
This had been published in German already earlier (I think that I mentioned the context) but now it's online in English:

Enduring Nazi Law Impedes Recovery of Art
Quote:
[...]
Despite the lengths Germany has gone to to repair the moral and material damage done during World War II, for decades the restitution of confiscated art was not a topic of discussion or action here, and no German government has sought to repeal the Nazi law.

“The legal situation is relatively obvious and clear,” said Mr. Büche, who oversees the collection at the Moritzburg Foundation in Halle. “With art taken from Jewish collectors, there are sometimes legal or at least moral circumstances under which they can seek to have their works restituted. We can only seek to buy them back.”

Indeed, those works confiscated from public German museums stand in a separate category from works seized or sold under extreme duress by private Jewish collectors, whose heirs may still have legal claims to the art. Some have initiated new actions to retrieve works found in Mr. Gurlitt’s apartment.
[...]
While the German authorities have come under criticism abroad for their handling of the Gurlitt case — in particular, keeping the discovery of the art trove secret for almost two years — questions have been raised in the German news media about whether they had the right to seize Mr. Gurlitt’s entire collection. While he is under investigation for tax evasion, he has yet to be charged with any crime.

On Tuesday, the state prosecutor in Augsburg, Bavaria, where the case is being handled, said he would urge the task force appointed to clarify the provenance of the collection to tell him as soon as possible which works are irrefutably Mr. Gurlitt’s, so that they can be returned. Mr. Gurlitt has made clear he considers the works his property and wants them back.
[...]
Mr. Büche, the curator, would like his pictures back, too. Yet, in his three decades at the Moritzburg museum, he has been able to celebrate the return of just 16 prewar items, a tenth of a collection that once ranked among the most impressive in the country.

Some of the museum’s prewar works now hang in the Museum of Modern Art in New York or at Harvard University after having been traded on the open market like many so-called degenerate works once confiscated by the Nazis.
[...]
Historians say the Soviet powers sought to have the law nullified in the early 1950s but claimed that the Western Allied powers, for reasons that are unclear, did not support the idea. So Hitler’s rejection of works that did not reflect the Nazis’ sentimental view of art lives on.

Last weekend, the respected conservative daily Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung condemned the law’s endurance as part of the “unsurpassed hypocrisy” of German dealings with the art the Nazis plundered.

“It is hard to believe, but this Nazi law has never been overturned by the German government,” said Ulrike Lorenz, director of the Kunsthalle Mannheim, which lost its Modernist collection, some 800 works, to the Nazis.

The Kunsthalle Mannheim began early on to collect works by the German Expressionists, including Ernst-Ludwig Kirchner, whose “Melancholy Girl,” a print described by Ms. Lorenz as an important and very personal work, was found in the Gurlitt collection. Ms. Lorenz would like to see it hanging again in Mannheim.

“Of course, we will seek to have the work returned,” Ms. Lorenz said. “Carefully put, I think that the public museums have a certain moral claim to the art that once belonged to them.”

Some art historians point to the precedent set by Bernhard Böhmer, who, like Mr. Gurlitt’s father, Hildebrand, was one of four dealers tapped by the Nazis to sell the so-called degenerate works. After he took his own life in 1945 in the East German town of Güstrow, the Soviets handed over most of his collection to the state, which returned the works to museums or sold them back at a nominal price.

Others warn that nullifying the 1938 law could have far-reaching implications.

“If that law were to be nullified, then all the transactions would have to be annulled,” said Sabine Rudolph, a lawyer who specializes in the restitution of art confiscated from Jews. “If one museum that recognizes a work in the Gurlitt collection insists, ‘I want that back,’ they may suddenly realize they have several works that previously belonged to other museums that they would then have to return.”
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2013 09:07 am
@Walter Hinteler,
so since the law is still on the books, you guys have a bit of egg on the face politic.

We have several laws in the US that transcend any common sense (Like in Lissouri, it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon longer than 6 feet. and In Pa, a driver of a car has to go through some weird ceremony when passing a horse buggy)

A bad law passed by an evil regime in 1938 seems to be something that should have been taken care of earlier than this. That wouldn't hve allowed cross claims to "pile up".
Well keep watching as this is getting curiouser and curiouser.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2013 09:31 am
@farmerman,
The problem is that merely repealing the Law to Confiscate Degenerate Art wouldn't change anything. (No English translation seems to be available --- sorry.) To restore the old property titles, Germany would have to nullify the law. The Allied Forces considered this during the occupation. Both Germanies considered it after the occupation. Neither of them did it; they all feared it would bury the legal system under a tsunami of lawsuits.

These fears aren't even implausible. Remember, the Nazi government had confiscated all 'degenerate' art from every museum in Germany that owned any, and from each individual under German jurisdiction who owned any. We're talking tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of difficult lawsuits here.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Nov, 2013 09:42 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
These fears aren't even implausible. Remember, the Nazi government had confiscated all 'degenerate' art from every museum in Germany that owned any, and from each individual under German jurisdiction who owned any. We're talking tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of difficult lawsuits here.
Indeed. And I don't think that what the World Jewish Congress published today is very helpful - we had t change out legal system completely ...

Quote:
BERLIN - The president of the World Jewish Congress is criticizing as "irresponsible" demands by German prosecutors to quickly return many artworks that were confiscated from the home of Munich collector Cornelius Gurlitt.

Ronald Lauder said in a statement Wednesday that decisions regarding the 1,400 artworks found in Gurlitt's apartment, many of which may have been stolen by the Nazis, should be made by the German government, not local prosecutors.
Source
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Nov, 2013 02:11 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Today, according to a report in the Süddeutsche Zeitung, the Central Council of Jews in Germany criticised the plans to give some hundred paintings back.More "sensitivity and responsibility" should be shown because this affair didn't have only legal aspects but "a moral and historic dimension" as well.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Nov, 2013 03:22 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Today, according to a report in the Süddeutsche Zeitung, the Central Council of Jews in Germany criticised the plans to give some hundred paintings back.More "sensitivity and responsibility" should be shown because this affair didn't have only legal aspects but "a moral and historic dimension" as well.
do you folks REALLY want to go back to the days when Rome decided based upon current whims? The law MUST rule.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Nov, 2013 06:22 am
@Walter Hinteler,
An report in English @ DW:
Quote:

German Jewish body criticizes handling of Gurlitt art hoard

The Central Council of Jews in Germany has argued against returning some artworks seized from Cornelius Gurlitt's apartment. After 18 months of "conspiratorial" silence on the find, they said it was now unwise to rush.

The president of the Central Council of Jews in Germany, Dieter Graumann, told Thursday's edition of the 'Süddeutsche Zeitung' newspaper that prosecutors should rethink plans to return some of the art to Cornelius Gurlitt.
[...]
"There will probably be around 310 paintings that are doubtless the property of the accused," Aubgsburg public prosecutor Richard Nemetz told the Süddeutsche when asked how many pieces might be returned to Gurlitt.

Jewish representative Graumann said officials were running the risk of compounding earlier errors.
"After the whole affair was handled almost conspiratorially for a good 18 months, now this swift decision in favor of a partial return is also the wrong path," Graumann said. ... ... ...
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Thu 21 Nov, 2013 10:49 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
do you folks REALLY want to go back to the days when Rome decided based upon current whims?

If "you folks" means the Central Council of Jews in Germany, the answer is "yes". The Central Council is a lobbying organization; pushing the interests of the Jewish heirs is their job, and they're doing their job effectively and forcefully. (Appropriately so --- this is how a free society works.)

If "you folks" means me personally, the answer is "no". Germany can buy the paintings from Gurlitt, or it can pay damages to the original owners' heirs. But it cannot get to the paintings by violating Gurlitt's legal rights, and it cannot keep those paintings that it knows are Gurlitt's just to extract concessions from him about the others.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Nov, 2013 11:26 am
@Thomas,
Quote:

If "you folks" means the Central Council of Jews in Germany, the answer is "yes". The Central Council is a lobbying organization; pushing the interests of the Jewish heirs is their job, and they're doing their job effectively and forcefully. (Appropriately so --- this is how a free society works.)

please help me to understand: why now are German firms, that is people who were not even alive 70-80 years ago, falling all over themselves to apologize to jews who were also not alive 70-80 years ago for what the Nazi's did. And handing them money? It seems almost masochistic besides being a complete diversion from building anything. are you germans in the middle of some 12 step program or something? is this penance for being the iron hand of the EU during the current fiscal difficulties?
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Nov, 2013 11:31 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
please help me to understand: why now are German firms, that is people who were not even alive 70-80 years ago, falling all over themselves to apologize to jews who were also not alive 70-80 years ago for what the Nazi's did. And handing them money?

There's no "now" about it. This has been happening at least since the 1980s. And before that, I was too young to pay attention, so I can't say to which extent it's been happening even before that.
 

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