5
   

ART TROVE IN MUNICH WORTH 1.5 BILLION EUROS

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Nov, 2013 06:05 am
@Walter Hinteler,
The spiegel-online version has now been translated: Interview with a Phantom: Cornelius Gurlitt Shares the Secrets of His Pictures
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Nov, 2013 06:30 am
@Walter Hinteler,
wow, a sad story. They even have him hooked up with grief counseling.
Any polls about what the average German is thinking about all this?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Nov, 2013 06:54 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
Any polls about what the average German is thinking about all this?
Not that I've noticed such.

And, actually, I have no idea what "the average German" thinks about this - "nothing", I suppose, or "let me alone with those old stories" ...
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Nov, 2013 07:03 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
Any polls about what the average German is thinking about all this?


The average German is probably too busy trembling with fear in anticipation of what's going to happen on Tuesday.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Nov, 2013 07:11 am
@izzythepush,
We only send our B-team ... (seems good enough)
Edited: and it's a French referee, no Russian.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Nov, 2013 07:20 am
@Walter Hinteler,
You're probably right, if I was a gambling man I wouldn't bet on us, but that doesn't stop me posturing.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Nov, 2013 07:22 am
@izzythepush,
But if you'd play without goalie but 11 outfield players instead ... Wink
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Nov, 2013 08:17 am
@Walter Hinteler,
It sometimes feels that we've played all of our qualifying matches without a goalie.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Nov, 2013 09:43 am
From the Observer/Guardian: Munich art hoarder: 'All I wanted to do was live with my pictures'
Quote:
Questioned about the media's interest in him, he said: "I'm not Boris Becker. What do these people want from me? I'm just a very quiet person. All I wanted to do was live with my pictures. Why are they photographing me for these newspapers, which normally only feature photos of shady characters?"

Cornelius Gurlitt appears to revere his father Hildebrand, who was first discriminated against by the Nazis for this "non-Aryan" background but was later commissioned to sell and make money from artworks confiscated by the regime. The younger Gurlitt described his father as "courageous" and said "he loved art and fought for it". That some of the artworks in his collection may have been unfairly claimed from Jewish collectors – as the case of Fritz Salo Glaser implies – appeared not to have occured to him.

Gurlitt insisted that his father never bought anything from a private individual but only from German museums or art dealers, adding that his father only cooperated with the Nazis because he wanted to save the paintings from being burned: "It's possible that my father may have been offered something privately, but he certainly didn't accept it. He would have found that unsavoury."

Gurlitt likened his situation to that of Franz Kafka's In the Penal Colony. In the short story, Kafka's narrator describes a machine that carves a legal verdict into a man's back, eventually killing the accused without him being able to establish what crime he has been found guilty of.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2013 12:22 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
It seems that it really isn't (legally) so easy - I suspected that earlier.

It is said that about 600 paintings might have been originally owned by Jewish persons.
Cornelius Gurlitt inherited these paintings fro his father ... more than 30 years ago.
30 years, that's the statutory period for the "retention of title".

Besides that, I haven't seen the legal reason which allows the "authorities" to publish the paintings against the will of the (momentarily still legal) owner ...
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2013 12:28 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Article in this AMs NYT stated that Gurlitt's father had acquired (according to the Gurlitts records) most of these paintings in legitimate sales, auctions and even direct transfer from past owners.
Apparently Gurlitt's paintings were "seized " in 2010 and then returmed when "All appeared in order"

The old guy seems legit(so far)
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2013 12:46 pm
@farmerman,
They were "seized" in 2011 - the year 2010 came out in the first "breaking news" and was repeated later .... without changing even after the correct data were published.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2013 02:06 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Has this not been in the hands of government authority for two years now? I had heard that in a radio report.

The Bavarian government confiscated the paintings for a reason: They are evidence in a forthcoming criminal suit against Gurlitt. Pending the end of this case, they remain Gurlitt's rightful property. Germany's federal government is not free to requisition them from the Bavarian government and return it to the original owners.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2013 02:09 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Well, Walter, we often have to coax such information out of you. I believe i am correct in stating that in the United States (or most jurisdictions here) that if you are in possession of a stolen item, even if you are not criminally responsible, it can be seized as the proceeds of crime.

In principle, the same is true in Germany. But the thefts happened 65 years ago, and there are statutes of limitations on things like this. I'm not familiar enough with the legal details to tell how they apply to this particular case.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2013 02:20 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
according to the NYT, there were actuqlly 2 events, One in 2010 and then the one on 2011 where the paintings were NOT YET returned. Ill look upon the article when I get bqck home but Im almost certain that it discussed Two separate seizings.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2013 02:20 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
In principle, the same is true in Germany. But the thefts happened 65 years ago, and there are statutes of limitations on things like this. I'm not familiar enough with the legal details to tell how they apply to this particular case.
The key-word here is "theft" - that only can be proven by a court.
Until then, he owns them legally. ("My" 30 years just were conformed by a law professor of Thomas' famous alma mater.)
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2013 02:35 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
The key-word here is "theft"

The statute of limitation on theft rules out that Mr. Gurlitt is criminally liable --- unless the District Attorney can find a law Gurlitt broke after 1983.

But as Setanta pointed out a few pages ago, Gurlitt has an obligation to return other people's property even if he isn't criminally liable for its theft. I wonder what the statute of limitations is on that. Obviously there has to be some statute of limitations. Last time I checked for example, the US government had no immediate plans to return all American land to its rightful Indian owners, so 250 years seems to be an upper limit for restitution under American law. How about 60 or 70 years under German law? Is that above or below the limit when Gurlitt's continuous possession of the pictures establishes property rights?
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2013 02:51 pm
@Thomas,
Civil law has never been one of my favourite topics - and exactly that is what has to be looked at here

Quote:
Section 987 [BGB]
Emoluments after litigation is pending

(1)The possessor must return to the owner the emoluments that he receives after litigation is pending.

(2)If after litigation is pending the possessor fails to take emoluments that he could take under the rules of proper management, he is obliged to reimburse the owner to the extent that he is at fault.


There is no limit for restitution mentioned in the law.
Those "30 years" are opinions in law comments ... and a single (lower court) decision.
It could well be that in this case the court has a different opinion. (The prosecution seems to have it, too.)

Gurlitt (son) has some rights.The court has to decide, what they are. (And I bet that it won't be just one court!)
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2013 03:44 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
That's not what I meant. What I meant is captured by the BGB word "Ersitzung". (For non-Germans, the BGB (Buergerliches Gesetzbuch) is Germany's civil code.) I'm reading the relevant part of the BGB right now, but it's all very complicated. I'll report on what I found later.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Nov, 2013 03:52 pm
@Thomas,
The son inherited all paintings legally from his father. He is the "Besitzer" (.... and "Eigentümer" [872 i.V.m 937]).
His father was "Besitzer" as well as "Eigentümer" according to laws and legal businesses of those days.
 

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