20
   

My Beliefs revisited

 
 
JTT
 
  0  
Tue 22 Oct, 2013 10:54 pm
@mysteryman,
Quote:
I believe the words in the constitution mean what they say. I can read.


I guess that means that your name is in the running for any open positions on the USSC, right, MM?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Wed 23 Oct, 2013 02:37 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
You don't inspire anger in me, you're not that important. You do inspire contempt.
Setanta
 
  2  
Wed 23 Oct, 2013 02:41 am
@McGentrix,
Neither do i--perhaps you could explain the idea to me. I support the "paying your fair share" idea. Wealthy people derive the most benefit from public services and infrastructure--i just think they should pay a share of the costs commensurate with the benefits they receive.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Wed 23 Oct, 2013 03:34 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
You don't inspire anger in me, you're not that important.
You do inspire contempt.
Yeah; Y shud HE be any exception !?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 23 Oct, 2013 06:32 am
@maxdancona,
maxdancona wrote:

There were a lot of points there... I answered the ones that interested me. Pick the two points you think were most "troublesome" and I will be happy to address them for you.


I'm not taking sides in this thing between you and Finn...but I just wanted to compliment you on this particular post segment.

Well played.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  0  
Wed 23 Oct, 2013 08:16 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Neither do i--perhaps you could explain the idea to me. I support the "paying your fair share" idea. Wealthy people derive the most benefit from public services and infrastructure--i just think they should pay a share of the costs commensurate with the benefits they receive.


We disagree on that apparently. What you and I would consider a "fair share" must be different.

One thing though, how do wealthy people "derive the most benefit from public services and infrastructure"? Do they have the police come over more often? Do they drive on different roads that the govt made special for them? Do the have a special on call for rich people ambulance? I fail to see how you figure this. Explain please.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 23 Oct, 2013 08:32 am
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:

Setanta wrote:

Neither do i--perhaps you could explain the idea to me. I support the "paying your fair share" idea. Wealthy people derive the most benefit from public services and infrastructure--i just think they should pay a share of the costs commensurate with the benefits they receive.


We disagree on that apparently. What you and I would consider a "fair share" must be different.

One thing though, how do wealthy people "derive the most benefit from public services and infrastructure"? Do they have the police come over more often? Do they drive on different roads that the govt made special for them? Do the have a special on call for rich people ambulance? I fail to see how you figure this. Explain please.


You jumped into that one, McG!
Setanta
 
  2  
Wed 23 Oct, 2013 11:19 am
@McGentrix,
Actually, i've already explained it elsewhere, but i'll indulge you. People who own or who invest in operations to manufacture raw materials, or parts for finished goods, or factories to make finished goods use over-the-road transport to deliver their products to the next stage--parts manufacture, manufacture of finished goods, the distribution of finished goods. Those transport put the most wear and tear on the highway system. New highway construction usually comes from state funds enhanced by Federal block grants. As i've already pointed out, the bulk of government revenues comes from wage earners. Highway maintenance is also partly paid by those same sources, but largely by fuel taxes. The guy filling up his BMW at the pump next to the guy filling his pick-up is paying the same price. There are, of course, excise taxes on the fuel the transports use. But the wealthy can deduct those fuel costs from their personal or corporate taxes. People who just drive to work are not allowed to claim their travel expenses. So, once again, wage earners provide the lion's share of the cost of maintaining public infrastructure which benefits the wealthy far more than it does the wage earners.

The police and fire departments protect the homes of the wealthy and the wage earners alike. However, they also protect the business properties of the wealthy, and not only does that serve to protect their investments, but it means a substantial savings on their insurance costs. Once again, wage earners provide the lion's share of the revenues which support police and fire departments. As for the response times of police, of firemen and of emergency medical technicians, it has been well established time and again that they move more quickly into affluent neighborhoods--but that wasn't my point, that just a sneer on your part.

I know these are difficult subtleties for you, but it gets even worse. If you hire a geologist to search for likely petroleum deposits on land you own, and he finds it, you can deduct the cost of his services. You can also deduct the start-up costs of the oil drilling operation. You can also deduct a "depletion allowance" as the oil in that deposit begins to run out. The guy in the pick-up may own a few acres of standing timber. Of course, he doesn't need anyone to tell him that. He cannot, though, deduct the cost of setting up a timbering operation, and he gets now allowance on his taxes for the depletion of his timber. Don't even get me started on so-called "defense contracts."

Wage earners pay for the various governments of this country and their operations. Wealthy people are large just along for the ride.

Meanwhile, you have never explained what you mean by punishment by taxation. What do you allege people are being punished for?
Foofie
 
  -1  
Wed 23 Oct, 2013 11:45 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Neither do i--perhaps you could explain the idea to me. I support the "paying your fair share" idea. Wealthy people derive the most benefit from public services and infrastructure--i just think they should pay a share of the costs commensurate with the benefits they receive.


Whether the wealthy people "derive the most benefit from public services and infrastructure" really might be false, since public transportation is used by the poor, more than the rich. Public housing is used by the poor and not the rich. Parks are used more by the poor, than the rich. Many hospitals, paid by tax dollars, are used only by the poor. And, even though the streets, for example, in Manhattan are clogged with taxis, it is not just the rich that take taxis, but many corporations want their employees to get to airports/meetings on time, and pay for the convenience of a taxi. In effect, the middle class benefits from the infrastructure and services that may have initially been planned for the wealthy. That is the whole goal of the middle class, not to be wealthy, yet live much better than one's peasant ancestors, almost like the rich of a century or two ago.

The proverbial middle class pays taxes and gets benefits that they need. Fair trade. It is the poor that requires more free benefits, not the middle class. It seems to me that the poor are not paying their fair share in taxes, since they pay no taxes, yet need services and infrastructure that they are getting for free. The question I have is how do the wealthy utilize a greater amount of the services and infrastructure? That is specious. The middle class uses the most services and infrastructure, since one person, wealthy or not, utilizes the same services and infrastructure. But, many of those that want to tax the rich will just continue to claim, in my opinion, that the wealthy owe more to society, due to their prosperity. Similar perhaps, to the Catholic concept of charity, that if one has two winter coats, and someone has no winter coat, the coatless person has the ethical right to have the second coat of the person with two winter coats. I see the reverse. The poor, being an albatross on society, really owes more to society, perhaps in longer periods of government service, or some such recompense for all that society has doled out to them and their families? Naturally, Black Americans can claim that any freebies that they get today can be thought of as recompense for servitude of ancestors in prior centuries.




0 Replies
 
Foofie
 
  -1  
Wed 23 Oct, 2013 12:02 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Actually, i've already explained it elsewhere, but i'll indulge you. People who own or who invest in operations to manufacture raw materials, or parts for finished goods, or factories to make finished goods use over-the-road transport to deliver their products to the next stage--parts manufacture, manufacture of finished goods, the distribution of finished goods. Those transport put the most wear and tear on the highway system. New highway construction usually comes from state funds enhanced by Federal block grants. As i've already pointed out, the bulk of government revenues comes from wage earners. Highway maintenance is also partly paid by those same sources, but largely by fuel taxes. The guy filling up his BMW at the pump next to the guy filling his pick-up is paying the same price. There are, of course, excise taxes on the fuel the transports use. But the wealthy can deduct those fuel costs from their personal or corporate taxes. People who just drive to work are not allowed to claim their travel expenses. So, once again, wage earners provide the lion's share of the cost of maintaining public infrastructure which benefits the wealthy far more than it does the wage earners.

The police and fire departments protect the homes of the wealthy and the wage earners alike. However, they also protect the business properties of the wealthy, and not only does that serve to protect their investments, but it means a substantial savings on their insurance costs. Once again, wage earners provide the lion's share of the revenues which support police and fire departments. As for the response times of police, of firemen and of emergency medical technicians, it has been well established time and again that they move more quickly into affluent neighborhoods--but that wasn't my point, that just a sneer on your part.

I know these are difficult subtleties for you, but it gets even worse. If you hire a geologist to search for likely petroleum deposits on land you own, and he finds it, you can deduct the cost of his services. You can also deduct the start-up costs of the oil drilling operation. You can also deduct a "depletion allowance" as the oil in that deposit begins to run out. The guy in the pick-up may own a few acres of standing timber. Of course, he doesn't need anyone to tell him that. He cannot, though, deduct the cost of setting up a timbering operation, and he gets now allowance on his taxes for the depletion of his timber. Don't even get me started on so-called "defense contracts."

Wage earners pay for the various governments of this country and their operations. Wealthy people are large just along for the ride.

Meanwhile, you have never explained what you mean by punishment by taxation. What do you allege people are being punished for?


Don't get all riled up by my comment, it is for general consumption of the posters.

What I believe is left out of your analysis is that much wealth of the country is in the hands of PUBLICLY traded corporations. And, as people's 401-k's include the stock/bonds of these publicly traded corporations, the simple wage earner is participating in the wealth of the corporations. The fact that the wealthy own more stock than the simple wage earner might be trivial, since the U.S. economy is so big, and the number of simple wage earners and his/her 401-K is so vast, that the simple wage earner really has a greater vested share than the wealthy person, in any corporation whose delivery trucks use the publicly funded highway. Remember that the wealthy person has his/her stock portfolio well diversified, so it is not like one wealthy person just has his/her wealth from one or two companies.

The fact that wealthy people, who might own their own NON-publicly traded corporation, get to deduct business expenses, so their tax burden is lessened, is just an incentive to BUILD businesses, and not have the U.S. lose to the competition in the global market.

And, it is really the wage earners that are along for the ride, since the economic capitalist system was designed for someone to RISK his/her capital. The wage earner is just along for the ride. The proverbial wage earner squirrels away a few shekels every paycheck if he/she is lucky, but would be horrified possibly to be asked to put those shekels AT RISK. Many wage earners ("Hey Marty, it's Saturday night. Whatta we gonna do") have no idea, nor want to know, how to risk his/her shekels, unless it was at a card game, or the track. And, dat's da troot! So help me God!

P.S. : My attempting to explain why the current system is my preferred system is not because I am one of the wealthy. Far from it. I just would like the U.S. to remain economically strong, and it won't, in my opinion, if the system is changed to a more cradle to grave welfare state, since as you well know a nation cannot have both guns and butter. And, since there are demographics in the world that would like to come to a U.S. where I can be disenfranchised as a citizen, or future generations in my family, I prefer the status quo, since there is no way to have guns and butter.

I do not expect you nor anyone else to commiserate with my perceptions, since it is human nature to just be concerned with one's own perceived best interests. Happy Halloween.
JTT
 
  0  
Wed 23 Oct, 2013 12:23 pm
@Foofie,
Quote:
since as you well know a nation cannot have both guns and butter.


You sheeple are so duped. I thought Jews were supposed to be intelligent, Foofie. You sure got left out.

Whatever happened to the so called "peace dividend"? Another lie. The US needs a continuing line of boogeymen so that your "governments" can mislead you sheeple and continue to rape and pillage poor countries.

Did you get to help in the failed attempt to pillage Vietnam?
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  0  
Wed 23 Oct, 2013 01:05 pm
@Setanta,
You started this by saying that wealthy people made their money through investing and that they only paid 15% tax on capital gains. Now all the sudden the wealthy are manufacturers that ship goods over roads? Which is it Setanta? Are the wealthy that you want to punish because they don't pay enough percentage of their income in taxes the ones that have worked their entire lives making money or the trust fund babies? Or, is it just everyone? What income level do you draw the line at? $250k? $100K? A cool million?

How much should they be taxed? 90%? 75%? 50%? What is fair to you?

Setanta wrote:

Actually, i've already explained it elsewhere, but I'll indulge you. People who own or who invest in operations to manufacture raw materials, or parts for finished goods, or factories to make finished goods use over-the-road transport to deliver their products to the next stage--parts manufacture, manufacture of finished goods, the distribution of finished goods. Those transport put the most wear and tear on the highway system. New highway construction usually comes from state funds enhanced by Federal block grants. As I've already pointed out, the bulk of government revenues comes from wage earners. Highway maintenance is also partly paid by those same sources, but largely by fuel taxes. The guy filling up his BMW at the pump next to the guy filling his pick-up is paying the same price. There are, of course, excise taxes on the fuel the transports use. But the wealthy can deduct those fuel costs from their personal or corporate taxes. People who just drive to work are not allowed to claim their travel expenses. So, once again, wage earners provide the lion's share of the cost of maintaining public infrastructure which benefits the wealthy far more than it does the wage earners.


All of those trucks have taxes paid when they are purchased. They go through several thousands of gallons of gas that taxes are paid on. People driving those trucks have jobs and they pay taxes. They drive their own cars and pay taxes. The owner of the company drives his own car and pays the same gas taxes as the guy he has working for him does. But, all of that stuff means nothing to you except that in your opinion he doesn't pay "his share" of taxes.

Quote:
The police and fire departments protect the homes of the wealthy and the wage earners alike. However, they also protect the business properties of the wealthy, and not only does that serve to protect their investments, but it means a substantial savings on their insurance costs. Once again, wage earners provide the lion's share of the revenues which support police and fire departments. As for the response times of police, of firemen and of emergency medical technicians, it has been well established time and again that they move more quickly into affluent neighborhoods--but that wasn't my point, that just a sneer on your part.


You keep saying "wage earners". Where do they make their wages?

Quote:
I know these are difficult subtleties for you, but it gets even worse. If you hire a geologist to search for likely petroleum deposits on land you own, and he finds it, you can deduct the cost of his services. You can also deduct the start-up costs of the oil drilling operation. You can also deduct a "depletion allowance" as the oil in that deposit begins to run out. The guy in the pick-up may own a few acres of standing timber. Of course, he doesn't need anyone to tell him that. He cannot, though, deduct the cost of setting up a timbering operation, and he gets now allowance on his taxes for the depletion of his timber. Don't even get me started on so-called "defense contracts."

Wage earners pay for the various governments of this country and their operations. Wealthy people are large just along for the ride.

Meanwhile, you have never explained what you mean by punishment by taxation. What do you allege people are being punished for?


Your problem seems to be with corporations. Maybe you should stop using products developed, manufactured, shipped and distributed by those evil corporations.

You want people to pay some imaginary percentage of their income as a tax. Like because a person or a corporation only pays 250 million dollars a year in taxes that is too little because it's only 20% of their income. There has to be a limit somewhere Set and it can't be based on a percentage based on the current tax methods.

Now, if you want to consider a flat tax solution, I am all ears.
JTT
 
  0  
Wed 23 Oct, 2013 01:09 pm
@mysteryman,
Quote:
I just noticed I didnt post my beliefs


You don't have beliefs, MM, you have memorized memes.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  3  
Wed 23 Oct, 2013 02:53 pm
@McGentrix,
Today , for example, one of the biggest fines levied based upon the 2008 crash, is being negotiated so that its PUNITIVE LEVIES ARE ABLE TO BE A TX DEDUCTION>

That ability was developed by the GOP congress and approved by the rat fink Dem Clinton in 95. How bout that, someone does a felony and then is allowed to DEDUCT it in their taxes. (Yu realize then that Im supporting the felon.

How can you be infavor of that kind of ****.
____________________________________________

Why is the Social Security payroll deduction have an ordinary income cap? and then why do we go whining and call Social Security an "entitlement" Congress has purloined any cushion that the SS system had planned in its original "as builts"
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 23 Oct, 2013 02:58 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Today , for example, one of the biggest fines levied based upon the 2008 crash, is being negotiated so that its PUNITIVE LEVIES ARE ABLE TO BE A TX DEDUCTION>

That ability was developed by the GOP congress and approved by the rat fink Dem Clinton in 95. How bout that, someone does a felony and then is allowed to DEDUCT it in their taxes. (Yu realize then that Im supporting the felon.

How can you be infavor of that kind of ****.
____________________________________________

Why is the Social Security payroll deduction have an ordinary income cap? and then why do we go whining and call Social Security an "entitlement" Congress has purloined any cushion that the SS system had planned in its original "as builts"


They definitely are not "entitlements", FM...they are part of a much needed safety net program.

The entire country has got to wake up on this "entitlement" crap.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  -1  
Wed 23 Oct, 2013 03:01 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Today , for example, one of the biggest fines levied based upon the 2008 crash, is being negotiated so that its PUNITIVE LEVIES ARE ABLE TO BE A TAX DEDUCTION.

That ability was developed by the GOP congress and approved by the rat fink Dem Clinton in 95. How bout that, someone does a felony and then is allowed to DEDUCT it in their taxes. (You realize then that I'm supporting the felon.)

How can you be in favor of that kind of ****.
____________________________________________

Why is the Social Security payroll deduction have an ordinary income cap? and then why do we go whining and call Social Security an "entitlement" Congress has purloined any cushion that the SS system had planned in its original "as builts"


You guys seem to think that I am in favor of the current tax system. I am not. I mean that, I am REALLY not in favor of the current tax system.

BUT, it is the tax system we have. Get your guys to decide to change it.
Setanta
 
  2  
Wed 23 Oct, 2013 03:27 pm
@McGentrix,
So, you don't understand why people incorporate? People who own factories incorporate, take a job with the corporation, one of the perquisites of which is bonuses in the form of stock. They earn a wage, yes, but the bulk of their income comes from capital gains. Don't try to play rhetorical games with me, you're not good enough at it. I said that wealthy people who own such operations or invest in them. Once again, the owners get capital gains income, too, and it's much more lucrative. Incorporation spreads the risk around, which means that the former owner can take capitals gains, a salary, bonuses, perquisites like company cars, fuel cards, credit cards, paid travel--and they aren't on the hook if the whole operations goes south. You must not be in business.

In the 1950, the nominal tax rate in the lowest bracket was 17.4%. The nominal tax rate in the highest bracket was 91%. The cut offs were under $4000 and over $400,000, respectively. For the last eleven years, the nominal tax rate in the lowest bracket was 10%, and the cutoff rose from under $12,000 to under $17,000. That latter number is just slightly a dollar more than the Federal minimum wage, and less than the state-mandated minimum wage in many states. Getting the miniumum wage in the state of Washington, for example, would bump you up to the next tax bracket. For ten years, the nominal tax rate in the highest bracket has been 35%. That's less than 40% of the tax rate in 1950. The cut off in that bracket in that ten years has risen from $311,000+ to $379,00+. It's really hard for me to feel sorry for these jokers when their tax rate has been going down for more than 60 years (with the exception 1991 and 1992). In case you need someone to do the math for you, tax rates in the highest bracket have dropped by almost 60% since 1950. They have dropped by considerably less than 50% in the lowest bracket. Sound fair to you? (Tax rates courtesy of the National Taxpayers Union)

"All of that stuff" means a great deal to me, but you want to play games about it. Corporations can deduct their transport fuel costs. They deduct wages paid. They deduct vehicle maintenance. You don't get to deduct those things. The Highway Trust Fund got $28.2 billion dollars in fuel taxes in 2006. That wasn't enough, and the Fund continues to face insolvency--keep in mind that that does not include the costs which the states pay to maintain highways, including the interstate highway system.

Quote:
From 2008 to 2010, Congress authorized the transfer of $35 billion from the General Fund of the U.S. Treasury to keep the trust fund solvent.
The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) projected in January 2012 that the fund's Highway Account will become insolvent during 2013, and the Mass Transit Account insolvent in 2014. CBO said that although vehicles will travel more miles in the future (therefore consuming more taxable fuel), rising fuel efficiency standards and congressional refusal to increase the fuel tax or tie it to the rate of inflation means that the fund receives less money. CBO's insolvency projection assumed that Congress will not increase transportation spending beyond inflation-adjusted 2012 levels.
In 2013, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce supported raising the federal gasoline tax to keep the fund solvent.


(Source at Wikipedia)

Apparently you think that because wealthy people pay wages, they should get to take the system for a ride. Wage earners pay the lion's share of the revenues with which the Federal government, state governments and local governments maintain infrastructure, and provide public safety services. You ignored that such corporations get reduced insurance rates because of public safety services where they operate. That's just the same as you ignoring that wealthy business owners are investors in their and other corporations, too, and derive a good deal of their income from capital gains--taxed at 15%, less than half of the nominal tax rate in the highest bracket.

At not time have i said or implied that corporations are evil. Try approaching such a subject with reason rather than emotion. I just want both corporations and wealthy individuals to pay for the services which benefit them more than anyone else. Individual tax rates in the highest bracket have declined in every year but one since 1950. They are now a small fraction of the tax rate in 1950. Don't for a moment believe that the cost of governments, Federal state and local, have declined similarly in that 60 years.

You don't need to tell me what i want to see in the way of taxes, because you don't know. Go set up your straw men somewhere else. Talk about flat tax rates if hilarious--you can kiss highways, police, fire departments and the armed forces of the United States goodbye if that kind of idiocy is ever enacted, because all those governments will go broke in short order.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Wed 23 Oct, 2013 04:24 pm
@maxdancona,
They are all there. Respond or don't.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Wed 23 Oct, 2013 04:25 pm
@JTT,
It's a puzzlement!
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Wed 23 Oct, 2013 04:26 pm
@Setanta,
The feeling is mutual my friend.

0 Replies
 
 

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